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Old August 11th, 2014, 06:37 PM   #8381
FM 2258
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Are you saying new high speed lines are already needed parallel to existing major PDL's?
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Old August 11th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #8382
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post


Are you saying new high speed lines are already needed parallel to existing major PDL's?
If the lines are already full then the new parallel high speed lines are already overdue.

Which does not mean that additional branch lines elsewhere are not also necessary.
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Old August 11th, 2014, 07:27 PM   #8383
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Are you saying new high speed lines are already needed parallel to existing major PDL's?
I have heard of at least one such case. From China Daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/m/qingd...t_17732466.htm):
Quote:
Jinan-Qingdao High-Speed Railway to be built in 2015
2014-07-11

The Jinan-Qingdao High-Speed Railway will be built in 2015, and is expected to finish in three and a half years, according to the Shandong Development and Reform Commission on July 10.

With a total investment of $8.37 billion, the railway line is 306 kilometers long and has a designed speed of 350 km/h. There are nine main stops along the line, including Jinan East, Hongdao, Zibo and Weifang. With the new passenger rail line, travel time from Qingdao to Jinan in Shandong province will be reduced to one hour.
It's easy to believe three dual-track railways are needed between Beijing–Tianjin, Guangzhou–Shenzhen and Shanghai–Nanjing, but is that much capacity really necessary for Qingdao–Jinan? Also, how are they going to shave 16% off the line length compared to the “old” 364-km PDL?
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Old August 11th, 2014, 07:43 PM   #8384
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There do seem to be some high speed railways that are not full. Nanning-Fangchenggang high speed railway has 3 trains daily for now.

Are there any other lines with free capacity?
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Old August 11th, 2014, 07:46 PM   #8385
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There is already a CRH line between Qingdao and Jinan correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaozho...-Speed_Railway
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Old August 11th, 2014, 07:54 PM   #8386
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Yes.
It is an early, 250 km/h line. But it seems to me that there are 250 km/h lines where a parallel 350 km/h line might be more urgently needed. Such as Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan.
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Old August 12th, 2014, 08:18 AM   #8387
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post


There is already a CRH line between Qingdao and Jinan correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaozho...-Speed_Railway
It's normal to build multiple HSR lines to resolve traffic issue. Beijing-Tianjin are proposing to build the 3rd HSR lines.

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Yes.
It is an early, 250 km/h line. But it seems to me that there are 250 km/h lines where a parallel 350 km/h line might be more urgently needed. Such as Nanjing-Hefei-Wuhan.
The new Qingdao-Jinan HSR will be funded by local government and parties so it's easy to get approved and has priority to build.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 05:31 AM   #8388
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It's normal to build multiple HSR lines to resolve traffic issue. Beijing-Tianjin are proposing to build the 3rd HSR lines.
Will it take a different route, or run parallel to one of the existing HSR lines?
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Old August 13th, 2014, 08:03 AM   #8389
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Will it take a different route, or run parallel to one of the existing HSR lines?
Dont' know yet. The route planning will happen in second half 2014.
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Old August 13th, 2014, 12:30 PM   #8390
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I travelled this July from Jinan to Qingdao on D6007, which took me 2H 39M. The train was full. Actually, I landed on this train because the trains before it were fully booked (and I did not want to risk a seatless).

The G train from Qingdao to SH will take more than 6H, which is ridiculous considering that BJ-SH only takes less than 6H.

A 350km line between Jinan/Qingdao is overdue.
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Old August 14th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #8391
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I travelled this July from Jinan to Qingdao on D6007, which took me 2H 39M. The train was full. Actually, I landed on this train because the trains before it were fully booked (and I did not want to risk a seatless).

The G train from Qingdao to SH will take more than 6H, which is ridiculous considering that BJ-SH only takes less than 6H.

A 350km line between Jinan/Qingdao is overdue.
You East Coast people are funny.

Most of the country is just happy to have a 250kph train that cuts a 7 hour bus trip down to 90 minutes. It makes day trips possible rather than an entire weekend. It is these shorter trips of less than 500kms that really benefit, as taking a plane is usually not possible or out of the way and buses take far too long.

Although we should all be grateful Pre-2004 travel times by truck from Beijing would average 20kph on winding 1.5 lane mountain roads. Imagine 3 days to get from Beijing to ShiJiaZhuang.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 05:16 AM   #8392
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You East Coast people are funny.

Most of the country is just happy to have a 250kph train that cuts a 7 hour bus trip down to 90 minutes. It makes day trips possible rather than an entire weekend. It is these shorter trips of less than 500kms that really benefit, as taking a plane is usually not possible or out of the way and buses take far too long.

Although we should all be grateful Pre-2004 travel times by truck from Beijing would average 20kph on winding 1.5 lane mountain roads. Imagine 3 days to get from Beijing to ShiJiaZhuang.
Well, keep in mind on the east coast, flight delays are the norm. I learned enough traveling in China to avoid making domestic flights.

I also made the trip from Jinan to Qiandao, in that case, I have I was that the train station in 12:30pm and the next available train is at 4:30. Also the trains run at intervals of 30 minutes instead of 15 minutes like most HSR lines, which it's annoying. (I know, I know. it's not a problem, but still..)

Also Beijing-ShiJiaZhuang pre-2004 is about 2 hours via T trains running at 90-110 km\h. But in those days you can get off the train, and get a hot dog pastry from the snack vendors for 3 yuan and eat it on the platform and hangout for 10-15 mintues. Those days are gone....

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I live in NW China and 30+ million people live in caves in this part of the country.
When I visited rural shanxi and shaanxi (two week car trip. Xi'an-Yan'an-Pingyao-Taiyuan-Datong with lots of stops in between), I was told the cave houses are going out of fashion. People are building brick homes that isn't that much more expensive to build but have much better ventilation. This is true for you, are there really 30 million still (which will make it half of the entire population, including the large cities)? When I have traveling there, I did see lots of abandoned cave houses and new brick houses so I assumed that's true. (and made sense, considering the energy boom there) Off topic i know, but I'm curious.


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Not what he said. If you build quickly, you don't have the time to learn by past mistakes. A single mistake can become extremely costly in the long run. The first HSR, Tianjin-Beijing, opened in 2008. Any mistake that takes more than six years to discover wouldn't be discovered yet.
While Beijing Tianjin is China first 350km line in 2008. Slower 200 km line has being running for nearly a decade before that. Guangzhou-Shenzhen Railway has being running at 160 km/h since 1996, 200 km/h since 1998. While Qinhuangdao–Shenyang HSR has being at 200km/h since 2003. It was designed as 300 km/h line, and China Star run at 321 km/h during test run all the way back in 2003. And don't forget Shanghai Maglev since 2004. So testing and proofing HSR technology was well under way before 2004.

So by 2007, China already have 6,003 km of rail running over 200km/h, and 848lm over 250km. include Bombardier Regina (CRH1) running Guangzhou-Shenzhen, Beijing-Shanghai, Suining–Chongqing, Qinhuangdao–Shenyang HSR, Kawasaki E2-1000 (CRH2) running Jinan-Qingdao, Shanghai-Nanjing, Shanghai-Hangzhou, Changsha-Wuhan etc. Some of the lines are tested at 200 - 250 km previously since 2005, but run at only 160km/h in public and have speed raised in 2007, such as CRH1s on Beijing-Shanghai.

Before 2008, China basically experimented with every HSR technology available for least 5 year before the large build out from 2008. And the data point from period have contributed to the current state of Chinese HSR, such as using conventional instead of Maglev (Back then there were talks of a maglev network!!), using imported technology in CRH trains instead of domestic China Stars and Blue Arrow. using Dual approach of upgrading existing line (Guangzhou - Shenzhen method) and building new lines (Qinhuangdao–Shenyang method), and end up not using tilting train in their rolling stock. (SJ 2000 operating on Guangzhou - Shenzhen since 1998 was a tilting train)
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Last edited by luhai; August 15th, 2014 at 07:21 AM.
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Old August 15th, 2014, 09:11 AM   #8393
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Although we should all be grateful Pre-2004 travel times by truck from Beijing would average 20kph on winding 1.5 lane mountain roads. Imagine 3 days to get from Beijing to ShiJiaZhuang.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai
Also Beijing-ShiJiaZhuang pre-2004 is about 2 hours via T trains running at 90-110 km\h.
Both of you are unrealistic.
Luhai: Beijing-Shijiazhuang is 287 km. 2 hours at 90...110 km/h would be 180...220 km
Actually, for now the fastest slow train Beijing-Shijiazhuang takes 2:27. The slowest is 4:09.
What was the trip times back before 2004? This was after the first 4 speedup campaigns, that were 1997 to 2001.
China Hand: Beijing-Shijiazhuang is NOT through mountains. So the roads may be winding between fields, maybe are 1,5 lanes, maybe have ferries over unbridged rivers, but not mountain roads.
At your quoted 20 km/h, these 287 km still take 15 hours. Which is 1 day, not 3.
When did it take 3 days, meaning average 95 km per day? Well, maybe not pre-2004 but pre-1904. Then something like a horseback messenger with changes of horses?
The railway Beijing-Hankou was opened in 1905, and Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan, through Taihangshan Mountains, in 1907. What was the trip time Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Taiyuan on opening, in 1907?
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Old August 15th, 2014, 09:41 PM   #8394
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Well, keep in mind on the east coast, flight delays are the norm. I learned enough traveling in China to avoid making domestic flights.
I have flown several times but so far I have had good luck. I had good luck flying everywhere actually - except for that time I took an MD-83 (flying pieces of junk) and had to emergency descend over the Rockies to Stapleton when they lost one generator. You lose the second, and you become a stone.

You will know an emergency descent, it's unmistakable. Pilots come on the intercom, tell you what is going on, they hit the seat belt light, and then it's 30 degrees down the next second. Get that plane on the ground. Now.

Quote:
Also Beijing-ShiJiaZhuang pre-2004 is about 2 hours via T trains running at 90-110 km\h. But in those days you can get off the train, and get a hot dog pastry from the snack vendors for 3 yuan and eat it on the platform and hangout for 10-15 minutes. Those days are gone....
Yes, the new modern conveniences pushed all the cart vendors to outside the entrance to the station, 1km distant, or not at all and you get the same mall with global debt merchant shoppes lining the concourse, just like everywhere.

The new Datong line stations don't have any vendors near at all, and it's a 1km ride up to a plaza for buses taxis and auto drop off. Middle of nowhere, no carts allowed. Food inside, not expensive, but no variety. One or two shoppes at best. Datong line stations tend to be small. These new stations (big and small) don't do Chinese cuisine justice the bigger ones are airports, for that you need to get to some place local and old school. Old rail/bus combo stations are good for this, but it's a hassle to travel that way, no hotels, etc. - you know the drill.

Some long haul buses still stop at local way stations - not the toll road plazas with bad food and over priced convenience junk - and if you have the chance get off at these ramshackle stores and buy the food. It will be 1Y more but very good. Buses mandatory break/stop/washroom every 2.5 hours or so.

Quote:
When I visited rural shanxi and shaanxi (two week car trip. Xi'an-Yan'an-Pingyao-Taiyuan-Datong with lots of stops in between), I was told the cave houses are going out of fashion. People are building brick homes that isn't that much more expensive to build but have much better ventilation.
Locals tell me that, but I drive around a lot and don't see many. I see many abandoned and stove in caves, but very few people living in them.

When I ask if anyone lives in a cave no one will admit to it.

Took a trip up into the mountains recently to photograph a woman of 80 who lived in a cave her entire life, at the mouth of a box canyon and the mountain path behind her house to run the goat herd up to pasture. She grew up in a cave jigher up the wall, but they dug out the earth and she carved a new one. 3 metres lower. The upper one is now food storage. Old moldy walnuts that she gave to us by the kilo.

The figure used to be 100 million, but everyone is moving out of these small villages that are in hillsides, some with caves, into the nearest small city, living in a tower block apartment just like every where else.

No one under 50 or over 5 live in these small villages, everyone moving to the nearest city - often it's across the street. From an old brick house into a hi-rise.

The migration from rural-urban in china is not traveling hundred's of kms, it's more like hundred's of metres.

Some of the caves are nice - TV electricity, computer, tiled wall and ceiling, all mod cons - but it's still an arched cave in loess soil with no internal supports. One good quake and you are done for. Slept in one for 2 nights last year. Musty, get's dark early, and the back of them are always dark. Warm in winter and cool in summer, no electric bill to speak of. Getting rid of cooking soot and gases a major issue, they darken the roof.

I would guess all the cave dwellers will be gone within 10 years at most.

Last edited by China Hand; August 15th, 2014 at 09:53 PM.
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Old August 16th, 2014, 04:42 AM   #8395
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Both of you are unrealistic.
Luhai: Beijing-Shijiazhuang is 287 km. 2 hours at 90...110 km/h would be 180...220 km
Actually, for now the fastest slow train Beijing-Shijiazhuang takes 2:27. The slowest is 4:09.
What was the trip times back before 2004? This was after the first 4 speedup campaigns, that were 1997 to 2001.
I remembered it been relatively quick, but I was a kid back them. Since Shijiazhuang is the stop where I got my breakfast and by the time I finish it and pack my stuff, I'm at Beijing. Could be 2.5 or 3 hours. Looking at similar trains today such as T202 / T14, Beijing-Shijiazhuang is 2 and half hours. Which is about what I remembered. Pre-2004, it probably run like slower T trains like T6 with 2 hours and 40 minutes.


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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
I have flown several times but so far I have had good luck. I had good luck flying everywhere actually - except for that time I took an MD-83 (flying pieces of junk) and had to emergency descend over the Rockies to Stapleton when they lost one generator. You lose the second, and you become a stone.
I have not yet taken a domestic flight in China that doesn't set on the ground for more than half an hour due to "weather" problem. Which make connecting flights crazy. Also my loggage got lost not once but twice out of may be 10 times I have taken a domestic flight in China. Both times, it takes more than 3 days to get it back. luckily, both times are when I going home, so I don't really need my loggage. Anyways, domestic flights in China is a pain.


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The figure used to be 100 million, but everyone is moving out of these small villages that are in hillsides, some with caves, into the nearest small city, living in a tower block apartment just like every where else.
I highly doubt the 100 million number, since that ls total population of Shanxi, Shaanxi and Gangu. 50 million number looks fishy too, since in places like Wei river valley, Fen river valley (where most population of those provinces reside), the geography simply isn't there to build cave housing. Rammed earth brick houses seem to be common there as anything else in China. Since it's cost about the same as a cave house and probably the same amount of labor, just it does take a bit of land, while dig into the side of a hill is free. In any case, fired brick houses seems to be replacing. You see tons of makeshift kiln all over the place in the fall when they are fueling them with corn or wheat stalks, making air quality especially bad...

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Old August 16th, 2014, 04:44 AM   #8396
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double post

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Old August 16th, 2014, 06:36 AM   #8397
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I wasn't aware there is a large amount of cave housing in China. If there are some particularly dense examples of that maybe it can transition into tourist attraction. This is what happened with cave dwellings in Southern Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassi_di_Matera
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Old August 18th, 2014, 08:22 AM   #8398
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I wasn't aware there is a large amount of cave housing in China. If there are some particularly dense examples of that maybe it can transition into tourist attraction. This is what happened with cave dwellings in Southern Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassi_di_Matera
They already tourist attraction, especially the cave that used to house the entire CCP establishment.



Back to topic, Changsha-Nanchang started testing with the press. In this case the journalist got on a G1622 (CRH380BK) testing train from Changsha to Nanchang, and the trip took 1 hour and 57 minutes, 1 hour faster than equivalent D train. Also the journalist seems to be impressed that now every row will not have AC plug available, compare to just the ends of the train in previous CRH models.

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高铁网(Gaotie.cn)08月17日讯:

  “4小时,长沙南昌打了一个来回。”昨日上午8时50分,一趟G1622高铁动车组从长沙火车南站驶出,本报记者首次上车体验沪昆高铁长沙至南昌段试运行。列车以300公里/小时的速度贴地飞行,上午10时47分抵达南昌西站。348.85公里只花了1小时57分钟,比目前长沙至南昌最快的D字头动车要节省1个半小时。

  “目前是试运行,按图停靠每一站,耗时相对长一些。9月正式开通后,两地之间最快的G字头动车组只要90分钟,长沙3小时可往返南昌。”广铁集团相关负责人说。

  每排座位都有电源插座

  昨日上午8时50分,记者登上此趟试运行的CRH380BK高铁动车组列车。看上去外观与武广高铁上运行较多的CRH-3列车相似,但车厢内部更加宽阔,卫生间还专门设置有蹲式和坐式两种,给旅客提供更多选择。

  列车不时穿桥梁,过隧道。然而,记者走在过道上却十分平稳。列车分为二等座、一等座与商务舱三种车厢。其中,二等座车厢占据列车的80%以上,一边设为三排座,另一边为两排座。

  记者与两名工作人员坐在一排3人座上,各自双臂均有伸展空间。靠窗的工作人员要上洗手间,在工作人员的提醒下,坐在中间座位的记者将双腿贴在座椅前端的凹形区域,就腾出了可供一个成年人正常通过的空间。

  “沪昆高铁列车将三排座的中间座位座椅设计为凹形,乘客进出时,中间乘客不用像乘坐普通列车一样起身让路,而是只要将腿靠在凹形区域,就能腾出较大的进出空间。”工作人员说。

  列车行至新余北,记者手机显示电量不足,随即将充电器插入前排座椅后的电源插座,手机立即出现充电标识。“与以往二等座车厢只有两头两尾有插座不同,在沪昆高铁列车上,二等座每一排座位的前下方,都有可正常供电的电源插座,便于旅客充电。”工作人员说。

  沪昆高铁动车组在列车最前段和最尾段设有商务舱,与两头的司机驾驶室相邻,舱内仅设五个位置,全是皮质座椅,空间十分宽敞,这是与普通动车组列车最大的不同。记者坐上去后,扶手旁有按钮可选择坐、斜卧、平躺三种模式。在座椅右边,可抽出折叠办公桌和辅助阅读灯,左边有一个折叠的触屏电视,可以随时打开观看。

  试运行阶段每天开行13对列车

  杭长客专长沙至南昌段线路长348.85公里,设计时速为350公里。CRH380BK高铁动车组列车从长沙火车南站驶出,随后以300公里左右的时速驶往南昌西站,依次经停醴陵东、萍乡北、宜春、新余北、高安等5个车站。

  长沙至南昌段开通后,湘赣两省旅游交流更加便捷。江西的仙女湖、明月山、武功山等旅游景点,将与长沙的橘子洲头、岳麓山,醴陵的李立三故居等景点构成一条全新的90分钟旅游精品线。

  沪昆公司湖南分公司工程管理部部长李永清介绍,杭长客专长沙至南昌段试运行阶段为7月25日至8月底,期间每天开行13对列车,主要进行技术参数测试、故障模拟、应急场景演练、按图试运行等工作,预计9月正式开通。

  长沙将成为中部高铁枢纽城市

  按计划,沪昆高铁杭长客专全线今年年底前将通车。届时,长沙火车南站将成为中国南北向和东西向两条最长高铁大动脉的交会地,长沙也将成为中部高铁枢纽城市。

  广铁集团负责人介绍,杭长客专长沙至南昌段的具体开行计划要视试运行整体状况再定,票价经国家主管部门核准后对外公布。届时,可通过登录1230612306cn/" target="_blank">铁路客服中心网站、拨打12306铁路客户服务热线电话或查阅“广州铁路”官方微博了解相关信息。

  该负责人表示,杭长高铁开通运营后,将大大缩短湖南与长三角的时空距离,成为湖南连接东部沿海和沪宁杭地区最便捷的陆上通道。从长沙乘高铁可实现3小时到杭州、4小时到上海。预计长沙每天往上海方向的旅客发送量将由目前的1.5万人次左右,增长到3.2万人次左右,增幅113.3%。
http://crh.gaotie.cn/hukun/2014-08-17/178648.html
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Old August 19th, 2014, 04:59 AM   #8399
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Changsha-Nanchang HSR to open at the end of this August

Changsha-Nanchang HSR: 348.85km, design speed 350km/h

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANR View Post
Last Updated: 2014-08-17
Xinhua


A high-speed 380A train waits for setting out at the West Railway Station in Nanchang, capital of east China's Jiangxi
Province, Aug. 16, 2014. Some passengers were invited to experience the Hangzhou-Changsha segment of Shanghai-Kunming
Highspeed Railway on Saturday. With the speed of 300 kilometers per hour, the high-speed train shortened the travel
time from Nanchang to Changsha, a section of Hangzhou-Changsha segment, to one hour and 40 minitues. The Nanchang-Changsha
section is expected to put into use at the end of this August.



A passenger takes photo on a high-speed 380A train from Nanchang, capital of east China's Jiangxi Province, to Changsha,
capital of central China's Hunan Province, Aug. 16, 2014.



A high-speed 380A train waits for setting out at the West Railway Station in Nanchang, capital of east China's Jiangxi Province


A high-speed 380A train leaves from Changsha South Railway Station in Changsha


A train driver navigates a high-speed 380A train on a highspeed railway from Nanchang
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Old August 19th, 2014, 05:39 AM   #8400
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Interesting that Changsha-Nanchang would open first. I guess this make visiting "in-laws" easier, don't know if that's a good thing or not.
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