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Old September 18th, 2014, 02:34 AM   #8481
foxmulder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovecoffee View Post
from china daily

train tickets reach record high as holidays near!!

last Friday 9.69 million tickets were sold on Friday, the most one day ever.

between Sept 9 and 12 an average of 8.3 million a day were sold also a record high!


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Old September 18th, 2014, 07:15 PM   #8482
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High-speed train fares draw complaints
2014-September-18 08:53
Shenzhen Daily

HIGH-SPEED train G634 from Shenzhen to Nanchang via Changsha, which was officially put into use Tuesday, has drawn complaints because of its high fare, Shenzhen Economic Daily reported.

An economy-class seat for the whole 1,151 km trip, which takes five hours and 12 minutes, costs 546.5 yuan (US$87), 194 yuan higher than the D2322 train that runs to Nanchang via the Shenzhen-Xiamen high-speed rail, even though it saves passengers about 3 hours and 40 minutes of travel time.

The tickets for all 1,112 seats in the 16-carriage trains sold out the first day they became available.

According to the latest schedule, G634 leaves Shenzhen North Railway Station at 4:32 p.m. and arrives at Nanchang West Station at 9:44 p.m.

Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. operates two pairs of high-speed trains between Shenzhen and Nanchang since the Nanchang-Changsha section of the Shanghai-Kunming high-speed rail opened this week.

Train G638 departed at 6:38 p.m. and arrived at 11:32 p.m. yesterday.

The 342 km Nanchang-Changsha section has seven stations and is designed for trains to run at 350 km/h.

“The fare is unbelievably high, even higher than the cost to fly during the off-peak season,” Jiangxi native Chen Zhiwen, who has been working in Shenzhen for years, complained.

According to regulations, fares for high-speed trains are dictated based on how fast the train travels. The Shenzhen-Nanchang fare is set at 0.47 yuan per kilometer, higher than the standard 0.435 yuan per kilometer along the Wuhan-Guangzhou line and the 0.3 yuan per kilometer for the Xiamen-Shenzhen line.

Bus fare to Nanchang ranges between 240 yuan and 300 yuan while airfare in the off-peak season is around 280 yuan.

“Though the high-speed trains to Nanchang can divert some air passengers, the line won’t pose a threat to air service because of the high price,” Yang Tao, an employee with the marketing department of Shenzhen Airlines, said.
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Old September 18th, 2014, 07:58 PM   #8483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
High-speed train fares draw complaints
2014-September-18 08:53
Shenzhen Daily
...
Bus fare to Nanchang ranges between 240 yuan and 300 yuan while airfare in the off-peak season is around 280 yuan.

“Though the high-speed trains to Nanchang can divert some air passengers, the line won’t pose a threat to air service because of the high price,” Yang Tao, an employee with the marketing department of Shenzhen Airlines, said.
I think you better look at the prices yourself and ignore what the airline employee:
"Popular flights" costs between 981 and 1,921 yuan for November 18.
http://www.farecompare.com/flights/N...ZX/market.html

In HS train: 469/562 yuan.
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Old September 18th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #8484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
An economy-class seat for the whole 1,151 km trip, which takes five hours and 12 minutes, costs 546.5 yuan (US$87), 194 yuan higher than the D2322 train that runs to Nanchang via the Shenzhen-Xiamen high-speed rail, even though it saves passengers about 3 hours and 40 minutes of travel time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
“The fare is unbelievably high, even higher than the cost to fly during the off-peak season,” Jiangxi native Chen Zhiwen, who has been working in Shenzhen for years, complained.

According to regulations, fares for high-speed trains are dictated based on how fast the train travels. The Shenzhen-Nanchang fare is set at 0.47 yuan per kilometer, higher than the standard 0.435 yuan per kilometer along the Wuhan-Guangzhou line and the 0.3 yuan per kilometer for the Xiamen-Shenzhen line.

Bus fare to Nanchang ranges between 240 yuan and 300 yuan while airfare in the off-peak season is around 280 yuan.
For comparison, the second class G train ticket Nanchang-Wuhan is 538 yuan.
But that route has 2 fastest trains at 4:13 and 4:38. And a total of 19 G trains.
How do the ticket prices Shenzhen-Wuhan on planes and buses compare?
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Old September 19th, 2014, 06:41 PM   #8485
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Zhengzhou to Xuzhou HSR











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Old September 21st, 2014, 06:23 AM   #8486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
I think you better look at the prices yourself and ignore what the airline employee:
"Popular flights" costs between 981 and 1,921 yuan for November 18.
http://www.farecompare.com/flights/N...ZX/market.html

In HS train: 469/562 yuan.
China does not have the same values as the rest of the world.
Many travellers here, those not in the larger, richer, coastal cities, want fares to be cheap, and travel to be fast.
They want something, and want to pay very little for it.

They really do not value their time and would rather spend 3 days to get to a location, and save money, than spend more money and get to a destination in 4 hours.

If something saves them money, that is all that matters. If it takes longer, they don't care.

They are not comparing the HSR to aircraft, they are comparing it to a standing room only seat on the old green and red trains.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 06:32 AM   #8487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
What is the actual service speed going to be? 300 or 250 km/h? It wasn't fully clarified so far.
The distances involved strongly suggest avg speed 250-270kph for trips to be done in one daily segment. 1756kms, and longer ~2300kms if one went from Xian to Urumqi. The higher speed possible due to fewer trains and lower maintenance costs as a result, as it would take 10+ hours for one leg.

Also there are some very high winds on some segments, requiring a reduction in velocity to keep safety within range.

Just a guess, I would think there would be 6 trains daily all the way Xian-Urumqi, 7, 8, 830, 9, 930, 10 am. Then, perhaps, ''local'' trains that only service part of the route.

Night trains a possibility, but many would want to get around in daylight, and tourism would be better for daytime runs.

Last edited by China Hand; September 21st, 2014 at 06:48 AM.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 06:55 AM   #8488
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Originally Posted by elekto View Post
lets talk about economic feasibility, not technological one, we know that barriers are already broken, the problem is if people will pay to arrive few minutes earlier than they already do now and if maintenance and investment worth it.
The economics are mostly due to maintenance and wear. It's not what people are willing to pay to arrive a few minutes earlier, it is the procedures and maintenance required to keep the tracks and trainsets operational.

You could run all of China's strains at 450kph, and spend massive sums of money, but physics will cause a hard barrier that cannot be broken, in that you cannot repair and fix the equipment in the time alloted, no matter how much money you spend.

Physics dictates the wear and thus the maintenance, that must be performed every night. At some point, there are not enough people nor hours in the day to get the line ready for the next days operation. Money is irrelevant. Time and people rise exponentially as well.

For China HSR that number is ~310 max velocity at this point.

The F22 needs 30 minutes of maintenance for every hour in the air. Formula One cars are rebuilt daily. Top Fuel dragsters are rebuilt after a 5 second race.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 09:55 AM   #8489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
They really do not value their time and would rather spend 3 days to get to a location, and save money, than spend more money and get to a destination in 4 hours.

If something saves them money, that is all that matters. If it takes longer, they don't care.

They are not comparing the HSR to aircraft, they are comparing it to a standing room only seat on the old green and red trains.
HSR is not for that segment of the population. Clearly HSR is not and will never be as cheap as local trains and/or long distance buses. In China or in any other country.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 10:49 AM   #8490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
HSR is not for that segment of the population. Clearly HSR is not and will never be as cheap as local trains and/or long distance buses. In China or in any other country.
Um, why?

Rail inherently has the advantage over bus, that rail has the rolling friction of steel over steel, and does not waste energy on elastic hysteresis of rubber tyres.

Which means that freight rail, properly run, is much cheaper than trucks, and local trains, properly run, can be much cheaper than long distance buses - even at equal speed.

But if trains can be much cheaper than buses at equal speed then trains can also be about as expensive or slightly cheaper than buses - which would mean they are much more expensive than local trains, but that by being much faster than local trains and buses.

If a train is slightly cheaper than a long distance bus, yet much faster, is it then a HSR?

Examples for Nanchang-Shenzhen:
G633 takes 5:03 - but second class is 546 yuan 5 jiao
D2321 takes 8:31 - and second class is 352 yuan 5 jiao, even first class 423 yuan
T107 takes 10:01 - and hard seat is 119 yuan, upper hard sleeper can be had for 207 yuan, and even lower soft sleeper is 337 yuan
1203 takes 13:33 - hard seat is 72 yuan, upper hard sleeper 144 yuan, and even lower soft sleeper 257 yuan.

How does the bus trip time compare?
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Old September 21st, 2014, 11:42 AM   #8491
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For passengers a bus is the cheapest option almost everywhere partially because the bus company doesn't have to pay a major share for building and up keeping highways. For freight it's different, large volumes make rail more efficient.

It takes money to build and maintain HSR infrastructure and this cost is not shared with any other mode of transport. Therefore HSR is not going to be the cheapest mode of transport and thus not an attractive option if money is a far bigger consideration than time. It's basic economics and human behaviour, doesn't matter where.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 01:03 PM   #8492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
For passengers a bus is the cheapest option almost everywhere partially because the bus company doesn't have to pay a major share for building and up keeping highways. For freight it's different, large volumes make rail more efficient.

It takes money to build and maintain HSR infrastructure and this cost is not shared with any other mode of transport. Therefore HSR is not going to be the cheapest mode of transport and thus not an attractive option if money is a far bigger consideration than time. It's basic economics and human behaviour, doesn't matter where.
The decision to build highways and maintain them at a high cost, but then not recoup it from users but subsidize it from taxes, while railways cover their costs, is a political decision. It does not have to be made that way.

A government might decide to recoup the whole cost of roads from users, and when it is impractical, not have roads built at all. Or else a government might decide to subsidize almost the whole building and maintenance cost of railways by taxpayer, so that the operators and tickets cover only operating costs.

If HSR ran on railroads built and maintained with 100 % taxpayer money like buses run on 100 % free public roads, how then would HSR price compare against buses?
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Old September 21st, 2014, 02:23 PM   #8493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
HSR is not for that segment of the population. Clearly HSR is not and will never be as cheap as local trains and/or long distance buses. In China or in any other country.
mind you, HSR tickets are usually cheaper than long distance buses in China, You can see a lot of reports once a new HSR line open, the long distance bus suffer the most
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Old September 21st, 2014, 04:45 PM   #8494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
The economics are mostly due to maintenance and wear. It's not what people are willing to pay to arrive a few minutes earlier, it is the procedures and maintenance required to keep the tracks and trainsets operational.

You could run all of China's strains at 450kph, and spend massive sums of money, but physics will cause a hard barrier that cannot be broken, in that you cannot repair and fix the equipment in the time alloted, no matter how much money you spend.

Physics dictates the wear and thus the maintenance, that must be performed every night. At some point, there are not enough people nor hours in the day to get the line ready for the next days operation. Money is irrelevant. Time and people rise exponentially as well.

For China HSR that number is ~310 max velocity at this point.

The F22 needs 30 minutes of maintenance for every hour in the air. Formula One cars are rebuilt daily. Top Fuel dragsters are rebuilt after a 5 second race.

This is a myth created on these forums. China run these trains at 350km/h for 3 years.

The speed decrease was mostly political and partially due to management problems. It had almost nothing to do with economics or technology. If it were they couldn't run it for 3 years. Funny enough cause of these political change was an accident on lower speed line and not even the new lines/trains.
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Old September 21st, 2014, 05:32 PM   #8495
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In Sweden HSR have lower operating costs than lower-speed trains due to the trains running faster and thus having lower wage costs per passenger km, the trains run on the same tracks. (The speed difference isn't so large either, a bit faster than 200 km/h and a bit slower.)

It will probably be a while before wage costs will be as important for Chinese rail, though it will happen, wages are lower, but far more are employed. When it happens I guess they will take a cue from retail stores, and let the passengers steer the train to cut down on costs...
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 02:16 PM   #8496
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From wikipedia:

“In April 2011, the new Minister of Railways Sheng Guangzu said that due to corruption, safety may have been compromised on some construction projects and completion dates may have to be pushed back.[44] Sheng announced that all trains in the high speed rail network would operate at a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph) beginning on July 1, 2011
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4cd5723e-6...#axzz1Jn3JecpQ
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9MJ64RO0.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90...2/7351162.html
This was in response to concerns over safety, low ridership due to high ticket prices,
http://www.businessinsider.com/china...dilemma-2011-1
and high energy usage.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...447308782.html
On June 13, 2011, the MOR clarified in a press conference that the speed reduction was not due to safety concerns but to offer more affordable tickets for trains at 250 km/h (155 mph) and increase ridership. Higher speed train travel uses greater energy and imposes more wear on expensive machinery. Railway officials lowered the top speed of trains on most lines that were running at 350 km/h (217 mph) to 300 km/h (186 mph)”.
..........
The Wenzhou train collision was July 23, 2011 on a 200 km/h line.

In China it is commercially circulated to 350 km/h between 01/08/2008 (Beijing-Tianjin) and at least 28/08/2011 (Wuhan-Guangzhou), to my knowledge. From 01/07/2011 was reduced line-to-line speed. CRH2C-2, CRH3C and CRH380A circulated at that speed were.
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 02:51 PM   #8497
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Beijing-Shenyang high speed rail
speed: 350KM/H
turn curve:7000m
length:699KM
construction date: Augst 2014.





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Old September 22nd, 2014, 03:30 PM   #8498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
..........
The Wenzhou train collision was July 23, 2011 on a 200 km/h line.
Was it then a 200 km/h line, or a 250 km/h line?
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 05:02 PM   #8499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
China does not have the same values as the rest of the world.
Many travellers here, those not in the larger, richer, coastal cities, want fares to be cheap, and travel to be fast.
They want something, and want to pay very little for it.

They really do not value their time and would rather spend 3 days to get to a location, and save money, than spend more money and get to a destination in 4 hours.

If something saves them money, that is all that matters. If it takes longer, they don't care.

They are not comparing the HSR to aircraft, they are comparing it to a standing room only seat on the old green and red trains.
China Hand, it's amazing but here in India at our equivalent of the lunar holiday i.e. Diwali and summer we have the same situation. You would be amazed at how many say the exact same thing: I don't mind taking many hours more to travel by a slow, cheap train which is packed but I cannot afford to take a flight-even if it costs Rs 2-3,000 more. I guess this is a problem of countries with poor people who travel big distances.
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Old September 22nd, 2014, 07:08 PM   #8500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Was it then a 200 km/h line, or a 250 km/h line?
The first part of the SE Coastal PDL (Hangzhou-Shenzhen) was opened on 28/09/2009 at 250 km/h. According to a news story about schedule changes, the speed was reduced to 200 km/h 01/07/2011. Ningbo-Wenzhou went from 72 minutes to 102.
................................
La primera parte de la SE Coastal PDL (Hangzhou-Shenzhen) fue inaugurada el 28/09/2009 a 250 km/h y, según una noticia sobre los cambios de horarios, la velocidad fue rebajada a 200 km/h el 01/07/2011. Ningbo-Wenzhou pasó de 72 minutos a 102.
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