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Old December 14th, 2014, 12:26 AM   #8841
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
China, in fact, has far better opportunities to implement more flexible fare system than any country in Europe. And it doesn't have to be extremes of any kind. It just makes better sense to introduce some flexibility for those who are able to plan their time.
The reason to discount the off-peak trains is obvious. If off-peak trains are now travelling empty but could be filled by discounted tickets then discounting off-peak tickets would allow more people to travel.

Of course, it is not clear it is the appropriate action. Would the train cover costs at discounted prices? Or should the empty off-peak trains be cancelled rather than discounted?

However, what is the real advantage in discounting tickets bought in advance?
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Old December 14th, 2014, 12:27 AM   #8842
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Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
I thought so
But I find HST tickets are very expensive in European countries, even with gov subsidies, and more expensive than budget airlines, is that a demotivating factor for people to opt for flights rather than HSTs?
Average incomes are still quite a bit higher than in Chinas as well. It is true however that budget airlines are often cheaper and they do take some of the more budget conscious customers. For key routes rail is faster though and more pleasant. Also deals for budget airlines need to be sought even more in advance than for trains and timing is often very inconvenient. Business travellers also tend not to use them.

Anyway population density, distances and sheer numbers is nothing like in China so it's difficult to compare…
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Old December 14th, 2014, 12:33 AM   #8843
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Because European nations don't have a HSR network on even remotely comparable scale as China. There isn't a unified EU-wise HSR network. Only some individual countries built their networks (France and Spain most notably).
There isn't, but it's also not a unified country like China is. International traffic is important, but it's almost always just a fraction of a national one. People simply don't have as much reason to travel abroad for business or pleasure.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 12:39 AM   #8844
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Of course, it is not clear it is the appropriate action. Would the train cover costs at discounted prices? Or should the empty off-peak trains be cancelled rather than discounted?

However, what is the real advantage in discounting tickets bought in advance?
It's all part of a strategy to maximise profits by filling trains as much as possible. Even if they end up losing money on a particular ticket it's still better than an empty seat.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 12:48 AM   #8845
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It's all part of a strategy to maximise profits by filling trains as much as possible. Even if they end up losing money on a particular ticket it's still better than an empty seat.
Yes, but a train that does not depart and does not lose energy, wear and tear, worker time, is better than a train that runs at a loss either because it is empty or because it is filled with discounted tickets.

Looking across the straits, a Standard Class ticket of THSR, Taipei-Zuoying
http://www5.thsrc.com.tw/en/ticket/tic_time_result.asp
costs 1630 T$, which at the exchange rate 0,1972 is about 321 yuan. For a 339 km trip. On mainland, a similar stretch is 342 km Changsha-Nanchang, whose price is second class 157 yuan, first class 264 yuan 5 jiao (and business class 496 yuan).
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Old December 14th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #8846
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From the July data I found, there is 101 pairs of trains run between BJ and SH on a daily basis, let's say 100, and suppose 1000 passengers per train for a 16-car train, that gives us 100,000 daily ridership. But from the news link I posted, the average daily ridership for 2014 is 294,000, give or take the number of passengers get on/off the train at stations between SH and BJ

Keep in mind that the news mentioned the peak daily ridership is at 30th September, 2014, at 416k on that day!!

So from this I would say, BJ SH line is almost at its full capacity and even flexible tickets wouldn't help much? How do you guys think? Have I miscalculated anything?
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Old December 14th, 2014, 01:16 AM   #8847
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes, but a train that does not depart and does not lose energy, wear and tear, worker time, is better than a train that runs at a loss either because it is empty or because it is filled with discounted tickets.
Yes, but it's a combination of full price and discounted tickets in any particular train. Target is for every train to make a profit even if every individual ticket does not.

Let's look at a following imaginary example (don't argue with absolute numbers, they don't matter):

Train running costs from point A to B: 20,000 euros
Seats in the train: 400
Break even point for 100% occupancy: 50 euros/ticket

For simplicity reasons assume there is only one class and last minute ticket costs 70 euros. If you could sell 400 tickets for that price every day then there is no problem, you are making 8,000 euros in pure profit and laughing all they way to the bank. But let's now assume that the competition from buses and planes is tough and you could on average sell only 250 tickets at this price. That leaves you 2,500 in the red on every train. What to do now? One option is to raise the price above 80 euros so that you make a profit even with 250 passengers, but how many further passengers will abandon your train in favour of competing modes of travel (or staying home)? Most likely a better option is to offer discounted tickets. Let's say the same 250 full price passengers and another 100 paying only 30 euros (below 50 euro break even point!). Now you end up making a small profit again.

Of course all this is a lot more complicated with various tickets types (flexible and not), business class (higher profit margin on them), peak and off-peak days etc. There needs to be a proper balance between discounted and full price tickets and so on.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 03:38 AM   #8848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
From the July data I found, there is 101 pairs of trains run between BJ and SH on a daily basis, let's say 100, and suppose 1000 passengers per train for a 16-car train, that gives us 100,000 daily ridership. But from the news link I posted, the average daily ridership for 2014 is 294,000, give or take the number of passengers get on/off the train at stations between SH and BJ

Keep in mind that the news mentioned the peak daily ridership is at 30th September, 2014, at 416k on that day!!

So from this I would say, BJ SH line is almost at its full capacity and even flexible tickets wouldn't help much? How do you guys think? Have I miscalculated anything?
And from my personal experience, I took the Shenyang-Changchun D train a couple of times, mostly after 8pm, I would say it's far from the peak hours, and it was 85-95% full. From that I would say, not only the trunk lines are in dire need of capacity expansion, but also regional lines.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 10:43 AM   #8849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
From the July data I found, there is 101 pairs of trains run between BJ and SH on a daily basis, let's say 100, and suppose 1000 passengers per train for a 16-car train, that gives us 100,000 daily ridership. But from the news link I posted, the average daily ridership for 2014 is 294,000,
Is it one way, or both directions?
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Old December 15th, 2014, 04:01 PM   #8850
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Question.

China was supposed to open a tranche of 1000s of KMs of new HSR last week...on the 10th I think.

Did the Lanzhou - Urumqi/Xinjiang Railway open on that date. I know it was being tested since the summer?????

http://en.people.cn/n/2014/0605/c90882-8736950.html

It was announced as being imminent a few weeks back.

http://en.people.cn/business/n/2014/...8-8813384.html

Quote:
BEIJING, Nov. 24 -- High-speed train services will expand to China's western regions including Gansu, Guizhou and Qinghai provinces as well as the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region starting from Dec. 10, the China Railway Corporation said on Monday.
New high-speed links connecting Lanzhou-Urumqi, Jining-Baotou, and Guiyang-Guangzhou, will see bullet trains span less developed regions for the first time, the company said.
[EDIT] I since found out that Urumqi - Hami opened a few weeks back but the Hami - Lanzhou section including the tunnel @ 3500 Metres altitude has not opened yet.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_18923037.htm

Last edited by sponge_bob; December 15th, 2014 at 07:37 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2014, 03:30 AM   #8851
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Chengdu Local "HSR" Lines

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Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
Are these all now officially "Intercity"?
I'll have to assume that Chengdu-Deyang-Mianyang is not, as it is part of Chengdu-Xi'an. The line appears complete to Mianyang with concrete track bed, ie. design speed 300+km/hr. At Mianyang the dead end of the tracks is merged with the standard rail just north of the station, presumably to allow access for test and maintenance. There are pillars in place for about 90% of the route Mianyang-Guangyuan. Some parts of this section are running on earth embankments. Again at Guangyuan there is provision for running the dead ends onto the old standard track. There are very few beams laid on this section yet, but beam factories are in production at Guangyuan and near Luomiaozhen, with beam laying machines starting work.

North of Guangyuan there are pillars being constructed for crossing the Jialingjiang and there is a hole in the side of the hill that doesn't look as busy as I expected a tunnel in progress to look. My train was going to Baoji, so I didn't see any more...
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Old December 17th, 2014, 03:41 AM   #8852
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Last edited by xinxingren; December 17th, 2014 at 03:44 PM. Reason: Firefox posted duplicate
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Old December 17th, 2014, 04:00 AM   #8853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
With the missing pieces (Shijiazhuang-Jinan, Zhengzhou-Xuzhou) of the original plan (4 east-west lines, 4 north-south lines) close to completion, more capacity is definitely needed for the BJ-SH, BJ-GZ lines.
More capacity is needed all over the place. The fastest train now Beijing-Chengdu is T7. It has seven YZ hard seat coaches and these are full, full, full with wuzuo tickets being sold for most of the distance. Please come back a year after Xian-Chengdu HSR opens and tell me they are no longer selling 无座 tickets on T7.

For long distances there are still millions of Chinese who choose not, or can't afford, to fly or hsr. So we have trains like K546, previously Xi'an-Qiqiha'er, now running from Chengdu. Will this be withdrawn when the HSR opens? I think not.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 05:26 AM   #8854
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Changsha-Huaihua HSR opened on December 16

Location: Hunan Province, part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
Length: 416km, 9 stations
Speed: 300km/h




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Old December 18th, 2014, 08:23 AM   #8855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Changsha-Huaihua HSR opened on December 16

Location: Hunan Province, part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
Length: 416km, 9 stations
Speed: 300km/h
Is this a 350km/h design line with 300km/h operational speed or is it the same case as Urumqi-Hami with actual speed of 200km/h? I always assumed the entire Shanghai-Kunming line will be a 350km/h one.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #8856
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So it looks like the very first Chinese-led "HSR" project in Europe will be in Serbia/Hungary, connecting the capitals of Belgrade & Budapest.


Quote:
Belgrade-Budapest high-speed rail ready in 2017

17 December 2014

Serbia reached an agreement Tuesday with China for the construction of a high speed railway between Belgrade and Budapest.

Serbian Prime Minister Aleksandar Vucic and Chinese Minister of Transport of the People's Republic of China Yang Chuantang met at the summit of government officials from China and countries in Central and Eastern Europe.

A statement released Tuesday said that Vucic and Chuantang had agreed on the details of the project including the timetable for research which is to be completed by June 2015, as well as on the means to finance the project and on the date for completing the project which is set for June 2017. Negotiations for the project began on Vucic's visit to the People's Republic of China in September 2014.

The high-speed railway is to run on a double track for rolling stock that can travel at 124 miles per hour (200 kilometers per hour).

Chinese Prime Minister Li Keqiang is expected to hold talks with Vucic and his Hungarian counterpart Viktor Orban about high-speed train construction.

Sixteen nations were represented at the summit, including many of the former Yugoslav states, the Baltic countries and EU members Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic.

The initiative is part of Serbia's plan to become China's gateway to the Balkans and to Europe.

The summit was initiated three years ago in Budapest, and meetings were held in Warsaw in April 2012 and in Bucharest in November of last year.
http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/17...y-in-2017.html
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Old December 18th, 2014, 08:51 AM   #8857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big-dog View Post
Changsha-Huaihua HSR opened on December 16

Location: Hunan Province, part of Shanghai-Kunming HSR
Length: 416km, 9 stations
It is not to Huaihua - it goes through Huaihua South to some destination 88 km beyond Huaihua.

As for speed: most trains there are G trains, but a few D trains exist. Also there is one express train (Huaihua-Changsha) that covers 332 km in 1:18, suggesting that it does operate at 300 km/h.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 09:29 AM   #8858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Is this a 350km/h design line with 300km/h operational speed or is it the same case as Urumqi-Hami with actual speed of 200km/h? I always assumed the entire Shanghai-Kunming line will be a 350km/h one.

I also would like to know this. I thought it would be a 380 km/h designed line.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 10:13 AM   #8859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Is this a 350km/h design line with 300km/h operational speed or is it the same case as Urumqi-Hami with actual speed of 200km/h? I always assumed the entire Shanghai-Kunming line will be a 350km/h one.
300km/h is the operational speed; The design speed is at least 350km/h.
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Old December 18th, 2014, 11:54 AM   #8860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
It is not to Huaihua - it goes through Huaihua South to some destination 88 km beyond Huaihua.
According to the Chinese Wikipedia article (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/沪昆客运专线) that destination is Xinhuang West in Xinhuang Dong Autonomous County, Huaihua.
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