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Old March 1st, 2015, 06:38 PM   #9041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And thatīs the problem.
If they can build a huge greenfield station out of town, they should be able to also build a branch line from the existing centrally located station to the greenfield station, and put local stations on that line. Or even better, put the greenfield station right on an existing line, and just add the local trainsī platforms to that old line.
They donīt seem to have done much of it.

China needs a million kilometres of trackage, sure. But to reach all the "bigger counties" takes much less than that. And the problem is, China is not making a good use of the existing 100 000 km either.

Yes, but what China also needs is trains which actually stop in rural townships.
I believe those are plans for the next steps. There are plans in many cities to connect the old and the new stations by subway lines and buses, or in the case of Beijing, they are building an underground tunnel to connect major stations.

It all comes down to how to efficiently allocate resources, and I agree with one of the previous posts, putting too many stations will slow the trains.

But from my personal experience visiting relatives living in a village in northeastern China, there is a train station there, where the village is! We always took the super slow train to the village (one administrative level below township), last trip was three years ago and the station was still there, just like how it looked 20 years ago. And I dont believe northeastern China is the only region that villages are covered by railways.

Granted, old and new stations that are intended to serve different purposes in cities may be less well connected currently, but the township/village coverage is entirely another discussion, and not sure how you reached to your conclusion.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 06:46 PM   #9042
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Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
[B]North-East,Harbin-Dalin
The line will adjust to summer schedule from 21st April, which means all G trains will run at 300km/h again, and D trains at 250km/h
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Old March 1st, 2015, 07:09 PM   #9043
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Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
It all comes down to how to efficiently allocate resources, and I agree with one of the previous posts, putting too many stations will slow the trains.
I disagree. It slows the trains that stop in those stations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
But from my personal experience visiting relatives living in a village in northeastern China, there is a train station there, where the village is! We always took the super slow train to the village (one administrative level below township), last trip was three years ago and the station was still there, just like how it looked 20 years ago. And I dont believe northeastern China is the only region that villages are covered by railways.
Precisely. Then why is the average trip length so long?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
Granted, old and new stations that are intended to serve different purposes in cities may be less well connected currently, but the township/village coverage is entirely another discussion, and not sure how you reached to your conclusion.
Thatīs what is needed for useful rail network. Good connections to villages/suburbs.
Also... There is a railway between Shanghai South and Jinshanwei.
The trains there are called C - not number or K trains.
Is that railway therefore HSR? Or is it a metro line, Shanghai Metro Line 22?
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Old March 1st, 2015, 07:55 PM   #9044
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I disagree. It slows the trains that stop in those stations.

Precisely. Then why is the average trip length so long?

Thatīs what is needed for useful rail network. Good connections to villages/suburbs.
Also... There is a railway between Shanghai South and Jinshanwei.
The trains there are called C - not number or K trains.
Is that railway therefore HSR? Or is it a metro line, Shanghai Metro Line 22?
The Shanghai South - Jinshanwei trains use HSR rolling stock and operate independently of both the metro network and the national HSR network, this is why it is called 'C': for City-level. Xinzhuang station (terminal of metro lines 1 and 5) is a planned stop on the line but has yet to start construction.
The vast majority of people take the non-stop service all the way from Shanghai S to Jinshanwei, the stops in between serve suburban/rural areas in southwestern Shanghai and are not well connected to other modes of transport.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 08:44 PM   #9045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I disagree. It slows the trains that stop in those stations.

Precisely. Then why is the average trip length so long?

Thatīs what is needed for useful rail network. Good connections to villages/suburbs.
Also... There is a railway between Shanghai South and Jinshanwei.
The trains there are called C - not number or K trains.
Is that railway therefore HSR? Or is it a metro line, Shanghai Metro Line 22?
It comes down to what trains/lines you want to add stops. Those trains are super slow because they already stop at many stations, adding one does not explicitly reduce the efficiency. But adding one station on a HSR line probably takes out a lot of the time for HSRs.

Thatwas just a one sentence statement, we are not sure if it meant for HSR, or conventional trains, or the mix.

C is for Chengji (intercity). Beijibg - Tianjin, Shanghai - Nanjing are both intercity trains. And with the integration of pearl delta region, there will be more C trains come into service.
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Old March 1st, 2015, 09:46 PM   #9046
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Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
But adding one station on a HSR line probably takes out a lot of the time for HSRs.
For some reason, it does take a lot of time for Line 22.
C36xx trains travel a total of 55 km, they make 6 intermediate stops from Chunshen to Jinshanyuanqu, and the travel time is...
1:00

So, an average speed of 55 km/h is HSR!
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Old March 1st, 2015, 10:00 PM   #9047
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I know this railway, I liked it wery much, but this pictures is deleted
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 03:01 AM   #9048
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Wuhan Iīve heard of, but where do Nanning "intercity" lines go?
Nanning is connected to towns on Guangxi's coast - Fangchengguang, Qinzhou and Beihai. As well, the Nanning to Liuzhou and Liuzhou to Henyang are classed as intercity railway lines.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
So, which is the first local HSR to open in Zhengzhou? And in which month?
Supposedly the Zhengzhou-Kaifeng intercity line [郑开城际铁路] has already opened according to Baike - on December 28th of last year. I never saw anything about it in the papers though and it appears to stop *just* before Kaifeng. The entire network is quite wordily named "中原城市群城際軌道交通" or Central Plains Metropolitan Intercity Railway. Lines are supposed to head off towards Jiaozuo, Xuchang, Luoyang and Xinxiang.

Quote:
And thatīs the problem. If they can build a huge greenfield station out of town, they should be able to also build a branch line from the existing centrally located station to the greenfield station, and put local stations on that line. Or even better, put the greenfield station right on an existing line, and just add the local trainsī platforms to that old line.
They donīt seem to have done much of it.
I'm not sure if building more stations is the right solution though. Train tickets are invariably more expensive than the bus - doubly so for the new high-speed lines; even this year many of my friends took the bus not because there were no trains but because it was cheaper and more ... traditional? It's like because they've always taken the bus, that's what they are comfortable with. I know more about where the new lines go and where the new stations than they do!

I wonder if before stations start sprouting all over the country side, that there needs to be a paradigm shift in how people approach transportation. It's one thing to build stations, but if nobody uses them then it's a bit silly. I know some of the lines (Beijing-Shanghai for example) are many money hand over first, but there are some lines that have been built are derisively called "lines to nowhere." People still equate train travel with 1980s time where you sat on a hard bench (unless you have a 无座 ticket) and shared the train with pigs and goats.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 10:51 AM   #9049
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Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
Nanning is connected to towns on Guangxi's coast - Fangchengguang, Qinzhou and Beihai.
None of which are towns: all three are prefecture-level cities.
Also, this railway connects no towns whatsoever. No station stops exist on the 117 km stretch between Nanning and Qinzhou East.

For comparison, Guangzhou South-Zhuhai is also 116 km - but C trains make as many as 7 stops in between, and as they skip different stations, the total number of stations with real service is yet larger.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 01:27 PM   #9050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
None of which are towns: all three are prefecture-level cities.
Also, this railway connects no towns whatsoever. No station stops exist on the 117 km stretch between Nanning and Qinzhou East.

For comparison, Guangzhou South-Zhuhai is also 116 km - but C trains make as many as 7 stops in between, and as they skip different stations, the total number of stations with real service is yet larger.
A quick look on Baike's entry for county-level divisions [县级行政区] gives me;

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baike
截至2013年12月31日,全国县级行政区划单位有2853个,其中市辖区872个、县级市368个、县1442个、自治县117个、旗49个、自治旗3个、特区1个、林区1个.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Translation by me
As of Dec. 31 2013, there are 2853 county-level divisions in the country; 872 city districts, 368 county-level cities, 1442 counties, 117 autonomous counties, 49 banners [divisions in Inner Mongolia], 3 autonomous banners, 1 special district and 1 forestry district
I guess for a country the size of China, having 3000-odd stations for *every* county might be possible. But considering how much stations tend to go for these days, that might be a tad excessive. Even if such a thing were possible, counties are not always small units like in America or Europe. My county is just over 400 sq km which puts it on the smaller end; next door Dujiangyan is 1200 sq km. As China is 9.5 million sq km, you're looking at an average county of over 3000 sq km.

Going back to concrete examples in Guangxi; while not strictly "intercity" trains - these are D trains - the Liuzhou-Nanning and Guangzhou-Nanning line has stops at counties. The Chengdu to Dujiangyan line (with branches to Pengzhou and Qingcheng Mtn.) and Wuhan Megapolis Intercity Lines are the only ones I can think that almost exclusively go to counties.

And I have to admit when I take the train to Dujiangyan or Qingcheng Mtn. I am a bit annoyed when the train stops at intermediate stations. I noticed they don't quite have services like Japan with things Special-Rapid Express, Rapid Express, Express, Semi-Express, and Local. Nor do they have the frequency that many Japanese lines seem to have. So while it might be theoretically possible for China to build a profusion of lines; I'm not sure at this stage they would be able to manage it so you have some trains that speed through, some that stop at a select few and others that go to each county.

I'm still waiting for the high-speed trains to connect to the cities in a some-what logical manner! The Lanzhou to Xi'an and Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan gaps are the most glaring.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 02:40 PM   #9051
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Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
I guess for a country the size of China, having 3000-odd stations for *every* county might be possible.
Um, no. Not even for China - because then you are talking of far over 9 000 000 stations!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
But considering how much stations tend to go for these days, that might be a tad excessive.
Indeed that tendency is excessive!
Look at the bottom category of German railway stations. 870 of 5400.
Duisburg-Entenfang station:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...-Entenfang.jpg
Could something like this, in every county, be affordable?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
Even if such a thing were possible, counties are not always small units like in America or Europe. My county is just over 400 sq km which puts it on the smaller end; next door Dujiangyan is 1200 sq km. As China is 9.5 million sq km, you're looking at an average county of over 3000 sq km.
Iīm in Europe, and my county is over 4000 square km.
As for Sichuan, I note that Sichuanīs population as of 2010 census, 81,1 millions, is pretty close to that of Germany.
Sichuan consists of 48 districts, 14 county level cities, 117 counties and 4 autonomous counties. But once you substract the 3 autonomous prefectures of Sichuan, and Panzhihua prefecture level city, how many counties, square kilometres and people are left in eastern Sichuan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
And I have to admit when I take the train to Dujiangyan or Qingcheng Mtn. I am a bit annoyed when the train stops at intermediate stations. I noticed they don't quite have services like Japan with things Special-Rapid Express, Rapid Express, Express, Semi-Express, and Local. Nor do they have the frequency that many Japanese lines seem to have. So while it might be theoretically possible for China to build a profusion of lines; I'm not sure at this stage they would be able to manage it so you have some trains that speed through, some that stop at a select few and others that go to each county.
Which is why they should forthwith start learning how to do it, and do it well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
I'm still waiting for the high-speed trains to connect to the cities in a some-what logical manner! The Lanzhou to Xi'an and Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan gaps are the most glaring.
Agreed. But they also do not connect to central cities in logical manner. Which is another glaring gap to fill.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 04:14 PM   #9052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Um, no. Not even for China - because then you are talking of far over 9 000 000 stations!
Oops, I meant 1 station per county. So 3000 stations for the entire country.

Quote:
Indeed that tendency is excessive!
Look at the bottom category of German railway stations. 870 of 5400.
Duisburg-Entenfang station:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...-Entenfang.jpg
Could something like this, in every county, be affordable?
Something like that, sure. But when this is the local train station for my township (one step below a county), I would assume they wouldn't build something so simple.

Quote:
Iīm in Europe, and my county is over 4000 square km.
As for Sichuan, I note that Sichuanīs population as of 2010 census, 81,1 millions, is pretty close to that of Germany.
Sichuan consists of 48 districts, 14 county level cities, 117 counties and 4 autonomous counties. But once you substract the 3 autonomous prefectures of Sichuan, and Panzhihua prefecture level city, how many counties, square kilometres and people are left in eastern Sichuan?
East Sichuan has 128 counties in an area of about 180,000 sq km with a population of about 73.4 million. So I guess the average county runs at like 1500 sq km. So I guess doable if they keep costs down, put stations near the county centres and have decent service (a mix of express and local). I'm somewhat jaded though, so I doubt this will happen in the current administration or even the next.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 05:00 PM   #9053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
A quick look on Baike's entry for county-level divisions [县级行政区] gives me;





I guess for a country the size of China, having 3000-odd stations for *every* county might be possible. But considering how much stations tend to go for these days, that might be a tad excessive. Even if such a thing were possible, counties are not always small units like in America or Europe. My county is just over 400 sq km which puts it on the smaller end; next door Dujiangyan is 1200 sq km. As China is 9.5 million sq km, you're looking at an average county of over 3000 sq km.

Going back to concrete examples in Guangxi; while not strictly "intercity" trains - these are D trains - the Liuzhou-Nanning and Guangzhou-Nanning line has stops at counties. The Chengdu to Dujiangyan line (with branches to Pengzhou and Qingcheng Mtn.) and Wuhan Megapolis Intercity Lines are the only ones I can think that almost exclusively go to counties.

And I have to admit when I take the train to Dujiangyan or Qingcheng Mtn. I am a bit annoyed when the train stops at intermediate stations. I noticed they don't quite have services like Japan with things Special-Rapid Express, Rapid Express, Express, Semi-Express, and Local. Nor do they have the frequency that many Japanese lines seem to have. So while it might be theoretically possible for China to build a profusion of lines; I'm not sure at this stage they would be able to manage it so you have some trains that speed through, some that stop at a select few and others that go to each county.

I'm still waiting for the high-speed trains to connect to the cities in a some-what logical manner! The Lanzhou to Xi'an and Shijiazhuang to Taiyuan gaps are the most glaring.
Actually there are high-speed train services running between Shijiazhuang and Taiyuan, perhaps you're thinking of Shijiazhuang to Jinan?
As for the line west to Xi'an, trains only run as far Baoji and will eventually link up with the Lanzhou-Urumqi HSR line once construction has finished.
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Old March 2nd, 2015, 05:35 PM   #9054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
Something like that, sure. But when this is the local train station for my township (one step below a county), I would assume they wouldn't build something so simple.
The next rank of German railway stations. There are 2500 such stations - 870 in the lower rank, 2000 in the 5 higher ranks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loxsted...dt_Bahnhof.jpg
And the whole Sichuan has a grand total of 238 subdistricts, 1865 towns, 2586 townships and 93 ethnic townships.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
East Sichuan has 128 counties in an area of about 180,000 sq km with a population of about 73.4 million. So I guess the average county runs at like 1500 sq km. So I guess doable if they keep costs down, put stations near the county centres and have decent service (a mix of express and local).
By my count, in 3 autonomous prefectures and 1 prefecture level city of Western Sichuan, there are
in Ngawa, only counties, 13 of them
in Garze, only counties, 18 of them
in Liangshan, 1 county level city
15 counties
1 autonomous county
in Panzhihua, 3 districts and 2 counties
leaving in Eastern Sichuan
45 districts
13 county level cities
69 counties
3 autonomous counties
For comparison, Germany has
357 000 square km area
as of 2011 census, 80,2 million residents
divided into 16 States
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Old March 3rd, 2015, 03:09 AM   #9055
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Hefei - Fuzhou HSR undergoing tests and set to be operational by June 2015



The railway is being examined from its foundations and will undergo a debugging process in January. If everything goes right, a trial run will be carried out in May before the railway goes into official service in June, said the authority.

The railway stretches 808 kilometers, connecting Hefei in Anhui province with Fuzhou in Fujian province. About 467 kilometers are in Jiangxi and Fujian provinces, threading by many tourism destinations such as the Yellow Mountain, Sanqing Mountain and Wuyi Mountain.

The railway is part of the Beijing-Fuzhou High-speed Railway. With a projected speed of 300 km/h, the railway will cut travel times between Fuzhou and Beijing from 20 hours to 7 hours.

It will also shorten the time by train from Fuzhou to Wuyi Mountain, Yellow Mountain and Hefei to 50 minutes, 2.5 hours and 3 hours, respectively.

The construction of the railway kicked off on Sept 30, 2010.
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Old March 3rd, 2015, 06:15 AM   #9056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
The railway is being examined from its foundations and will undergo a debugging process in January.
Thatīs impossible, because January is over and so is February.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
The railway is part of the Beijing-Fuzhou High-speed Railway. With a projected speed of 300 km/h, the railway will cut travel times between Fuzhou and Beijing from 20 hours to 7 hours.
Thatīs also impossible, because G56 already travels Fuzhou-Beijing in 10:36.
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Old March 3rd, 2015, 12:46 PM   #9057
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see the difference between G56 and Hefei-Fuzhou HSR?

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Old March 3rd, 2015, 12:55 PM   #9058
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He's saying G56 doesn't take 20 hours.


So they're going from 10:36 to 7:00 hours.
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Old March 3rd, 2015, 03:40 PM   #9059
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Nice to see another section finishing up.

Any particular reason why this one is rated for 350kph but the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen railway is rated at 250kph (except for the tiny Hangzhou to Ningbo part)? Both are crossing new terrains, and I would have guessed crossing the mountains was more difficult that hugging the coast. I've taken the latter and it did not seem terribly mountainous.

Is this not the railway that will theoretically cross the channel to Taipei? I remember seeing maps that featured an undersea tunnel to connect Fuzhou with Taipei.

Also aren't the eastern provinces getting nicely dense with high-speed track? Fujian already has the Xiangpu Railway[向莆铁路] going from Putian to Nanchang and Longxia Railway [龙厦铁路] going from Xiamen to Longyan; Jiangxi has the Changjiu Intercity Railway [昌九城际铁路] that connects Nanchang and Jiujiang as well as parts of the Hangchang High-Speed Railway [杭长高铁] that stretches from Hangzhou to Changsha traversing Changsha and Huangshan.

I'm sure plenty of county-level communities are being joined up by the new railways.
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Old March 3rd, 2015, 04:04 PM   #9060
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Any particular reason why this one is rated for 350kph but the Hangzhou-Fuzhou-Shenzhen railway is rated at 250kph (except for the tiny Hangzhou to Ningbo part)? Both are crossing new terrains, and I would have guessed crossing the mountains was more difficult that hugging the coast. I've taken the latter and it did not seem terribly mountainous.
I share your scepticism. Wikipedia actually says Hefei-Fuzhou is a 250 km/h line, with 200 km/h operation planned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hefei%E...-Speed_Railway
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