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Old May 1st, 2015, 06:44 PM   #9321
foxmulder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
I think the main interest of CSR/CNR in Bombarider rail division is to get in control of the wide patent portfolio. The problem for China now is that all of they HSR trains rely heavily on foreign patents. While all foreign manufacturers had to agree on technology transfer to chine, the accompanying agreements forbid Chine to sell the transferred technology abroad...
With the acquisition of Bombardier, China could for example bid for the US High Speed project without running into troubles ...

That won't make traditional European and Japanese manufacturers happy, after all it is them who developed the know-how over many decades.

That's capitalism at its best. The Zefiro Platform (CRH380D and its derived trains are basically Zefiro) has mainly been developed in Europe, its biggest stake is from Germany.
Various Bombarider facilities in Europe developed and built key components then shipped to China, together with a technology transfer deal as always(!) required by China. In other cases (Siemens, Alstom...) the first trains have been built in Europe, then the (money making but industry-destroying) technology-transfer deals enabled China to build those HSR trains domestically and continue development from that high starting point.

Subsequent trains are thus built in China, but still with the restriction of not selling that technology abroad. That's big money for Bombardiers stockholders, but employment is been lost in Europe. But for now at least engineering and development is still here (for example the Italian ETR1000 is part of the Zefiro family).

Now, Bombardiers stockholders could make even more money again by selling Bombardiers rail business to China, enabling China to basically take the world's export market as production in China takes place at a fraction of the labor cost of Europe or Japan.

Bombardier Germany amongst others then are f*** up.
They have developed key technologies over decades, but will as it seems lose their engineering intellectual property if the takeover by CSR/CNR will happen. Chinese will produce and sell that stuff to the entire world market at lowest costs.

Again, capitalism at its best. Those who make money with the deal are not those who have really worked for it for year...

Ok, I know China has another more proud national version of HSR history, claiming that almost all HSR technology is being developed in China anyway. Let's start the traditional flame war :-)
You are wrong to present old-fashioned "China stole our jobs" rhetoric as a fact. You are claiming China is making high speed train market smaller for other companies, in fact it is ABSOLUTELY the opposite. China itself domestically created a high speed rail market that is bigger than rest of the world combined. This has been hugely beneficial for both European and Japanese companies. They sold trains otherwise wouldn't be sold. So they have more work for their workers. In addition they sold technology. In other words, instead of selling a train to X million Euros they have sold it for 2X million. They have been making huge profits off the Chinese high speed rail boom.

Moreover, Chinese push for high speed technology, I claim, inspired other nations. I don't believe numerous countries like Thailand or Turkey would have gone with high speed rail without Chinese example. China build the lines in Turkey for very reasonable prices and thanks to that Spain and Germany sold their trains to Turkey. Thailand is splitting its high speed rail projects between Japan and China. Without Chinese push, I don't believe Japan could have found that market.

Also, China yet to sold a high speed train to Germany or France or Japan...

After above examples, claiming "China stole our jobs" is really an ignorant and malicious statement.

Second thing you are wrong about is that you believe Chinese engineers and scientist are not doing anything. Japan and Europe sold trains/technology that let operational speeds of 250km/h and 300km/h respectively. Chinese increased this to 380km/h. This did not happen thanks to magic. There is hard science and innovation went into 380A trains and Chinese did that themselves.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 05:01 AM   #9322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
You are wrong to present old-fashioned "China stole our jobs" rhetoric as a fact. You are claiming China is making high speed train market smaller for other companies, in fact it is ABSOLUTELY the opposite. China itself domestically created a high speed rail market that is bigger than rest of the world combined. This has been hugely beneficial for both European and Japanese companies. They sold trains otherwise wouldn't be sold. So they have more work for their workers. In addition they sold technology. In other words, instead of selling a train to X million Euros they have sold it for 2X million. They have been making huge profits off the Chinese high speed rail boom.

Moreover, Chinese push for high speed technology, I claim, inspired other nations. I don't believe numerous countries like Thailand or Turkey would have gone with high speed rail without Chinese example. China build the lines in Turkey for very reasonable prices and thanks to that Spain and Germany sold their trains to Turkey. Thailand is splitting its high speed rail projects between Japan and China. Without Chinese push, I don't believe Japan could have found that market.

Also, China yet to sold a high speed train to Germany or France or Japan...

After above examples, claiming "China stole our jobs" is really an ignorant and malicious statement.

Second thing you are wrong about is that you believe Chinese engineers and scientist are not doing anything. Japan and Europe sold trains/technology that let operational speeds of 250km/h and 300km/h respectively. Chinese increased this to 380km/h. This did not happen thanks to magic. There is hard science and innovation went into 380A trains and Chinese did that themselves.
Actually, the Chinese never claimed that they developed their HSR system on their own. They have always agreed that had it not been for Japan and Europe's help, China would not have been able to do what they have been able to do. The point of contention, in actuality, is that this technology did not remain static; the Chinese engineers went to great length to understand the principles behind the technology, and made subsequent improvements.

A suitable analogy would be purchasing Herbie from Lindsey Lohan, completely dismantling him, and using most of his spare parts to create an F1 racer. The Europeans and Japanese (old owners) view it as a bastardization of their children, while the Chinese are happy with themselves that they have something that performs better, faster, longer, and for reduced price. Trains such as the ICE3 and Shinkansen are not mere cultural icons--they are the love children of their countries and are an integral part of national pride and identity. For China to stroll in and make changes hither and thereto would be, to them, blasphemous and sacrilegious.

The decision for China to make HSR affordable for the masses also carries potential ramifications from other countries. HSR in most parts of the world are considered elite, premium services, as they are a symbol of a nation's power and wealth, and the ticket prices reflect its inclinations toward the rich and affluent. Combining the technology war with this "democratization of ridership", in the eyes of the Europeans and the Japanese, China's approach to HSR is not just about flexing economic muscle, but also about culture snubbing--especially since China is now eager to prove that its Communist Party is not C-In-Name-Only.

Arguably, China is telling the powers that be that their idols are false; in the sense that their cherished symbols of national power and pride can be easily and cheaply duplicated on a large scale--and what's more, are imperfect and can be improved. The East-West, China vs. Japan cultural conflict might have led to most to quiet resignation had China's "homegrown" HSR network stayed inside its own backyard, but with CSR and CNR becoming more and more vocal and determined to step onto the world stage, Europe and Japan find themselves facing (and competing against) their "bastard children"; and one most certaintly cannot expect their response cannot to be pleasant.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 07:15 AM   #9323
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I think you talking about different topics. In Any case, let's establish that

1. China is not buying Bombardier, it's a misinterpretation of the news report. But the misunderstanding has been cleared, let's move on.

2. China's CRH problem did purchase foreign trains and licence foreign designs, and later later iterations are based on these designs. No one is disputing this, and its the source the much hate on a subset Chinese rail forum on the CRH series. Where they wallow in the percieved corruption that cause the rail ministry to abandon domestic projects like China Start in favor of foreign designs and the hefty sums paid for them (as well as perceived kickbacks for them as well)

3. There more to HSR than just bullet trains, in fact, I would argue it's the non-train of the rail system that matters the most. After all, anyone can just purchase bullet trains, place it in a regular passenger rail system and have it perform underwhelmingly. This is the portion that make up the bulk of the HSR deployment cost, and it is China broke new ground in the scope and complexity of the networks and it is also where China messed up big time.

Okay, next topic.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 02:10 PM   #9324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
...
Second thing you are wrong about is that you believe Chinese engineers and scientist are not doing anything. Japan and Europe sold trains/technology that let operational speeds of 250km/h and 300km/h respectively. Chinese increased this to 380km/h. This did not happen thanks to magic. There is hard science and innovation went into 380A trains and Chinese did that themselves.
Although I know it is a controversial subject, I've seen pictures of the 3 Velaro CN CRH3A manufactured in Germany with the label of 350 km/h. And at that speed CRH3C circulated in the Beijing-Tianjin, for example.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 02:18 PM   #9325
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I think it's a good idea to move on as it'll just stir up arguments, both sides of which have some merit.

Friendly request from your local mod here.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 03:19 PM   #9326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
A suitable analogy would be purchasing Herbie from Lindsey Lohan, completely dismantling him, and using most of his spare parts to create an F1 racer.
Completely unsuitable analogy.


It's more like taking the blueprints from a Ferrari to make your own Ferrari, the blueprints from Porsche to make your own Porsche, etc., with permission. Then changing some small things on that Ferrari, maybe swapping some pieces from the Porsche, and saying it is now a completely new thing that you can freely sell abroad without having to pay Ferrari or Porsche.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 09:21 PM   #9327
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CRH380D officially entering services in Yangtze river delta region

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Old May 2nd, 2015, 09:42 PM   #9328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Completely unsuitable analogy.


It's more like taking the blueprints from a Ferrari to make your own Ferrari, the blueprints from Porsche to make your own Porsche, etc., with permission. Then changing some small things on that Ferrari, maybe swapping some pieces from the Porsche, and saying it is now a completely new thing that you can freely sell abroad without having to pay Ferrari or Porsche.
Please do tell me how the CRH380A (which was based off the E2 Shinkansen) fits your analogy and is still the same product as the E2.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 09:44 PM   #9329
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Again, I am asking nicely for this discussion to stop. It'll only rile up nationalists and neither side will win the argument.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 10:35 PM   #9330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Please do tell me how the CRH380A (which was based off the E2 Shinkansen) fits your analogy and is still the same product as the E2.
I'm not saying my analogy is perfect, but at least it's better than Herbie


Back on-topic now?
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:31 AM   #9331
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The CRH380D looks nice. Is it almost the same as the Frecciarossa 1000 and if so, were the launches coordinated (a bit?)
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:45 AM   #9332
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No, the CRH380D is the Bombardier Zefiro 380, and the ETR 1000 is the Bombardier-AnsaldoBreda V300 Zefiro.
Ansaldo just been bought by Hitachi.
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 12:24 PM   #9333
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What are the restaurant cars of various CRH models like?
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Old May 3rd, 2015, 02:51 PM   #9334
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CRH380AL/BL/CL/Dx2 at same spot

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Old May 5th, 2015, 03:48 AM   #9335
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Question: Besides the nose, why did CRH feel the need to categorize the 380B and 380C into different series?
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Old May 5th, 2015, 04:11 AM   #9336
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Quote:
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Question: Besides the nose, why did CRH feel the need to categorize the 380B and 380C into different series?
Most likely because some of them are based on a different technology coming from different parent designs (Siemens, Bombardier, Kawasaki).
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Old May 5th, 2015, 04:56 AM   #9337
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Quote:
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Most likely because some of them are based on a different technology coming from different parent designs (Siemens, Bombardier, Kawasaki).
"C" has less (it may be even none but not sure) foreign parts than "B" does. So, CRH380C can be marketed internationally.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 10:56 AM   #9338
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"C" has less (it may be even none but not sure) foreign parts than "B" does. So, CRH380C can be marketed internationally.
Would it not cause issues with patented technologies in some countries? One thing is saying that this is "original design" for marketing and PR purposes inside China but another thing is complying with laws in foreign countries when it comes to actual sales of the trainsets.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 12:05 PM   #9339
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The CRH380C incorporates equipment IGBT Hitachi instead of Siemens and is manufactured by CNR Changchun, while CRH380B Siemens holds a 18% and is manufactured by CNR Changchun and Tangshan.

This is the prototype of CRH380C (the white lines on the glass are wires with sensors)


which it is slightly different from final


Trains awarded (and then canceled) for Mexico were the CRH380A, the CRH380C offered to CaHSRA (USA).
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Old May 6th, 2015, 11:00 AM   #9340
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I just love the look of the CRH380B and how the blue cheat line makes and "arrow" at the ends. The CRH380D looks cool but I keep seeing the old CRH1 when I look at the rest of the train. Am I wrong to think the CRH1 is old high speed rail technology? From what I understand the CRH380D is an upgraded CRH1.
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