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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:07 AM   #941
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy Holly View Post
By US standards yes, but not by Chinese standards.
there's still the lower speed trains for those who can't afford this
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:14 AM   #942
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Originally Posted by Papagei View Post
As far as I know many people where on board during the testrun. And they didnīt do the testrun for a short measurement period and then slow down, they pushed the train to its limit for 3 hours. Thatīs a little bit of a diffrence and believe me, China did it to gather prestige . This is no sarcasm against China, I know that France does the same with their TGV.

Of course China will learn with those projects and eventually build better trains and I welcome them to do so. There is an old wisdom here saying that competition is good for economy. And competition in the high speed sector will also be good for our environment. And it will help foreign countries to follow and build high speed systems.

My personal view is that a daily service at 350 km/h is not safe with the bogies currently in use. You can do this with new trains but after several thousand km you better go back to 300-330 km/h if you donīt want to compromise safety. Here in Europe many specialists know and some say that 350 km/h is at the limit of safety with currently used bogies and the bogies and wheels in China arenīt different from those in use in Japan or Europe. China has the same technology we have in Japan and Europe but China is running faster which ultimately leads to compromised safety compared to Japan and Europe. Keep in mind that an accident at that speed will cost hundreds of lives so I donīt smile while watching China playing with fire.

If China had announced "we have developed additional dampers to be able to run safely at higher speeds" I would have said congratulations China, youīve made it but just using existing technology and pushing harder is nothing to celebrate on. Itīs not my life, its the lifes of chinese people! So donīt tell me I am sarcastic.
they'll probably lower the top speed soon to 330km/h, as yaohua2000 already said, since all the trains are currently arriving 10 minutes early
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:27 AM   #943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
there's still the lower speed trains for those who can't afford this
Yea .... I do not see what the problem is with the pricing ... they might be expensive to Chinese standards but high speed train tickets are usually much more expensive than the slower mediums anywhere else in the world as well.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:40 AM   #944
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I really doubt 55 yuan is expensive for Chinese people, that is even cheap over here in Pakistan for a 1000 km journey.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:47 AM   #945
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
its actually only an average speed of 313km/h, top speed is 380km/h though. Ultra fast, by any means, traveling ~1000 km in just 3 hours
Yes, I thought that was the case. Before I saw your post I was about to ask.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:50 AM   #946
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Originally Posted by KB View Post
Also the seating is in one direction...what happens on the return journey....revolving seats? doesnt look like it though.
They are revolving seats.

Watch 4:30-4:40
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:54 AM   #947
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1st Class Ticket Price: 749 RMB
2nd Class Ticket Price: 469 RMB



map
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Old December 28th, 2009, 12:59 AM   #948
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Regarding to this high ticket price, I would like to ask some Japanese people here about the affordability of Shinkasen tickets in Japan. I know Japan is a country of a long tradition and history with high speed train, but how was it like in the early years of high speed era in Japan ? What's the current ridership in Japan ? if you have some information please share. Thanks

China is a newcomer in this game and as a developing country, it will take times for the people to get used to high speed travel and for the living standard to rise, maybe then more people in China will use the service and turn it into a more profitable business and expand further.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 01:09 AM   #949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
they'll probably lower the top speed soon to 330km/h, as yaohua2000 already said, since all the trains are currently arriving 10 minutes early
I am betting they won't. First, the Beijing-Tianjin route is different: being as short as it is, there is no need to maintain the 350km/h speed. Second, that the trains are arriving 10 minutes earlier than schedule is neither here nor there. They have simply sustained the 350km/h speed a bit longer than is required for scheduled arrivals.

The reason for my bet is that I have read in so many articles that they had to "solve" the problem created by going at 350km for a long time - changing the shape of the cars at the ends ever so slightly and add "wind-blockers" between the carriages to improve aerodynamics and reduce drag by 5 percent for example - that it would simply be embarrassing to not actually do it.

But only time will tell :-)

Last edited by Ariel74; December 28th, 2009 at 01:28 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old December 28th, 2009, 01:20 AM   #950
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$69 or 48€ is pretty cheap for a 1000km journey in 3 hrs by any standards. Paris to Lyon ( <500km) can cost anything from 60-100+€ depending on time for economy class.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 01:26 AM   #951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Papagei View Post
As far as I know many people where on board during the testrun. And they didnīt do the testrun for a short measurement period and then slow down, they pushed the train to its limit for 3 hours. Thatīs a little bit of a diffrence and believe me, China did it to gather prestige . This is no sarcasm against China, I know that France does the same with their TGV.

Of course China will learn with those projects and eventually build better trains and I welcome them to do so. There is an old wisdom here saying that competition is good for economy. And competition in the high speed sector will also be good for our environment. And it will help foreign countries to follow and build high speed systems.

My personal view is that a daily service at 350 km/h is not safe with the bogies currently in use. You can do this with new trains but after several thousand km you better go back to 300-330 km/h if you donīt want to compromise safety. Here in Europe many specialists know and some say that 350 km/h is at the limit of safety with currently used bogies and the bogies and wheels in China arenīt different from those in use in Japan or Europe. China has the same technology we have in Japan and Europe but China is running faster which ultimately leads to compromised safety compared to Japan and Europe. Keep in mind that an accident at that speed will cost hundreds of lives so I donīt smile while watching China playing with fire.

If China had announced "we have developed additional dampers to be able to run safely at higher speeds" I would have said congratulations China, youīve made it but just using existing technology and pushing harder is nothing to celebrate on. Itīs not my life, its the lifes of chinese people! So donīt tell me I am sarcastic.
One word about the prestige thing. The French does go for prestige when they perform a speed test _without_ following up the test with commercial service that is roughly in the range of the tested speed. The chinese' tests have not been stand-alone tests, they are invariably necessary elements of a whole range of things done to ensure the safety of specific lines about to open for commercial service. Moreover, it's hard to argue that the tiny country that France is requires train services at the speed of above 500km/h. By contrast, utility is a much easier explanation for Chinese's going for 350 or 380km/h. So don't muddy the water by bringing in the French. They are a different species altogether, and yes, they love prestige.

There may however be an element of prestige in Chinese's going for higher speeds, I think. But it has to do with its _domestic_ audience, which is, as many know, a extremely patriotic crowd. But as said, utility is a much simpler explanation, and simple explanations, like everywhere else, should always be preferred.

Last edited by Ariel74; December 28th, 2009 at 01:32 AM.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 01:49 AM   #952
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Originally Posted by Hopobcn View Post
In this line is used or will use ERTMS level 2?
The chinese claim they have developed and deployed for the W-G-line the CTCS-3 system ("Chinese Train Control System"). I have no idea how much they borrowed or leaned on the European control systems in developing it. The performance of CTCS-3 is claimed to be: automated report and warning for tracks within 32 kilometers ahead in the direction of travel, with the gliding distance when braking at the speed of 350km/h being 5 km.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:01 AM   #953
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Here in Spain more or less the same Malaga-Barcelona (659KM) taking a high speed train cost more or less that (80€-130€). So 48€ for 1000 km is pretty cheap.

Anyway, as I said in other thread, this stuff of high speed trains is so nice specially because allows you to avoid all the shit and waits of airports. Some times it is quicker to travel 1000Km by high speed train than by taking a plane if you count the time you spend in the airport or train station.

And here in Spain if your train is delayed, you get back your money.

I cheer for all countries that are pushing for high speed trains.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:09 AM   #954
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Utility of course is the reason for high speed. This is why Iīm promoting maglev. It is simply faster and safer and less maintenance intensive at high speed.

I bet against you Ariel74. It doesnīt help the discussion but you will see it soon. Iīm sure they will lower speed to a maximum of 330 km/h or less.
As gincan correctly pointed out, the technology used in Chinese high speed systems is mainly german and japanese. The problem we have with high speed in daily service is not aerodynamics or any "tweak" you mentioned. It is the forces on wheels, axles and bogies. Wheels and Axles are limited by materials used and in China they donīt have better steel than in Germany or Japan.
The system can bear a speed of 350 km/h-400 km/h for a few days but the risk of failure of a wheel due to wear and tear grows exponentially. So if you run 400 km/h you have to check the wheels and axles ten times more frequently than at 300 km/h and you will have to replace parts much more often and you canīt ensure that the time window of your checks is short enough for all cases of failure. This is material science and any engineer working on the field of high speed trains will tell you that it is not useful from the view of economics and safety to run our actual train technology at more than 300 km/h. Of course you can go faster if you want to check several times more often and if you think you can risk failure of a wheel at a significant propability above zero after view weeks in service.
Unfortunately the wheel is the most safetyrelevant part of a high speed train and the wheel is the part which is beeing pushed to its limit at high speed.

If you want to run more than 300 km/h in an economically useful and safely manner you have to develop different bogies with different damping systems. Weīll see what the future will bring, wether it is maglev of different bogies. But actual technology nowhere will be in broad service at 350 km/h. Many countries had to learn that. Think of Spain which cancled their 350 km/h. Japan who cancled Fastech 360 (360 km/h intended) or France which cancled 360 km/h.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:15 AM   #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
Are you drunk?

The tracks are built to german specifics with the help of German engineers (Deutsche Eisenbahn-Consulting GmbH) (you find exactly the same track design in Germany), the technological installations are of German design (Siemens) and the signaling system is the ERTMS (also to great extend German). The trains are of German (Velaro) and Japanese design (Kawasaki E2 Series).

The Balastless track (RHEDA 2000) is German technology, actually developed by Rail One group and has been used on a number of high-speed rail lines.
http://www.railone.com/en/main-nav/p...d-outlook.html

China had to contract dossens of European and Japanese railway companys to be able to build the HSR lines and trains. The modifications done to the trains to be able to run at 350km/h was developed by Japanese and European companys. You can find all the contracts China had to sign in any railway technology related news feeder, be it railwayjournal or railway gazette or any other source.
I am not drunk or anything, I know all these. I am not going to speculate about you physiological condition

If you really know that much about the technology then you've also know it is not used anywhere until 2000. That's why most of the high speed railways even in Germany don't have it. Newly built lines have this technology. Also, what about the other stuff I mentioned?????
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:20 AM   #956
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Originally Posted by KB View Post
$69 or 48€ is pretty cheap for a 1000km journey in 3 hrs by any standards. Paris to Lyon ( <500km) can cost anything from 60-100+€ depending on time for economy class.
Depending on the time of year, in Australia you can get an airfare from Brisbane to Sydney (1,000km) for about that much. Takes about 1 hour on the plane.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:34 AM   #957
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Originally Posted by snow is red View Post
Regarding to this high ticket price, I would like to ask some Japanese people here about the affordability of Shinkasen tickets in Japan. I know Japan is a country of a long tradition and history with high speed train, but how was it like in the early years of high speed era in Japan ? What's the current ridership in Japan ? if you have some information please share. Thanks

China is a newcomer in this game and as a developing country, it will take times for the people to get used to high speed travel and for the living standard to rise, maybe then more people in China will use the service and turn it into a more profitable business and expand further.
This train and Japanese trains aren't comparable...this question is probably better for europeans? Nowadays Japanese focus more on enegery efficiency, noise pollution and acceleration while europeans are focusing on speed. (The new E5 series is the most energy efficient train but it's not the fastest).

The first bullet trains in the world (shinkansen) only had an operating speed of 210 kmh (0 series 1964).

Prices for Shinkansen are similar to plane tickets but usually cheaper to give incentive to take a train over a plane. From Tokyo to Kyoto (515 km) for example the price is around $120-200 depending on season and if you get return tickets, while plane is $300+.
Quote:
Compared with air transport, the Shinkansen has several advantages, including scheduling frequency and flexibility, punctual operation, comfortable seats, and convenient city-center terminals.

The Shinkansen system and airlines often compete with each other for the business of city-to-city domestic travelers. If the Shinkansen connects two cities in less than three hours, most passengers choose the Shinkansen, but if it takes more than four hours by Shinkansen, the majority choose air.
As for shinkansen statistics I will just quote wikipedia instead of translating from the Japanese.

Quote:
The Shinkansen (新幹線?) also known as "the bullet train" is a network of high-speed railway lines in Japan operated by four Japan Railways Group companies. Starting with the 210 km/h (130 mph) Tōkaidō Shinkansen in 1964, the now 2,459 km (1,528 mi) long network has expanded to link most major cities on the islands of Honshū and Kyūshū at speeds up to 300 km/h (186 mph). Test runs have reached 443 km/h (275 mph) for conventional rail in 1996, and up to a world record 581 km/h (361 mph) for maglev trainsets in 2003.

The Tōkaidō Shinkansen is the world's busiest high-speed rail line. Carrying 151 million passengers a year (March 2008), it has transported more passengers (over 6 billion) than any other high speed line in the world. Between Tokyo and Osaka, the two largest metropolises in Japan, ten trains per hour with 16 cars each (1,300 seats capacity) run in each direction with minimum 3 minutes frequency. Though largely a long-distance transport system, the Shinkansen also serves commuters who travel to work in metropolitan areas from outlying cities.
It doesn't show the total ridership for shinkansen but only the toukaidou line.
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Last edited by ukiyo; December 28th, 2009 at 02:48 AM.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:58 AM   #958
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Utility of course is the reason for high speed. This is why Iīm promoting maglev. It is simply faster and safer and less maintenance intensive at high speed.

I bet against you Ariel74. It doesnīt help the discussion but you will see it soon. Iīm sure they will lower speed to a maximum of 330 km/h or less.
As gincan correctly pointed out, the technology used in Chinese high speed systems is mainly german and japanese. The problem we have with high speed in daily service is not aerodynamics or any "tweak" you mentioned. It is the forces on wheels, axles and bogies. Wheels and Axles are limited by materials used and in China they donīt have better steel than in Germany or Japan.
The system can bear a speed of 350 km/h-400 km/h for a few days but the risk of failure of a wheel due to wear and tear grows exponentially. So if you run 400 km/h you have to check the wheels and axles ten times more frequently than at 300 km/h and you will have to replace parts much more often and you canīt ensure that the time window of your checks is short enough for all cases of failure. This is material science and any engineer working on the field of high speed trains will tell you that it is not useful from the view of economics and safety to run our actual train technology at more than 300 km/h. Of course you can go faster if you want to check several times more often and if you think you can risk failure of a wheel at a significant propability above zero after view weeks in service.
Unfortunately the wheel is the most safetyrelevant part of a high speed train and the wheel is the part which is beeing pushed to its limit at high speed.

If you want to run more than 300 km/h in an economically useful and safely manner you have to develop different bogies with different damping systems. Weīll see what the future will bring, wether it is maglev of different bogies. But actual technology nowhere will be in broad service at 350 km/h. Many countries had to learn that. Think of Spain which cancled their 350 km/h. Japan who cancled Fastech 360 (360 km/h intended) or France which cancled 360 km/h.
I suppose the point about bogies and wheels is well taken, and I have never argued that the technologies used are anything other than mainly based on German and Japanese ones. But I am still in no position to make a judgment simply because I have no idea a) what exactly the chinese engineers did, except for some superficial accounts from general articles in newspapers, some of which I have related here, and b) how various issues relate to each other (think how aerodynamics can change the pressure on the wheels for example).

Supposing you are not just letting out hot air, I assume either you are an engineer for high-speed trains yourself or you are making statements on the authority of some who are. For the speed itself we'll just have to wait a bit to see which of the two - the promise by the Chinese railway department and your engineer authority/credential that I assume you have - turns out to have substance :-) For the issue of economic feasibility, it can be much harder to prove things either way, as again, you'd have to know the exact modifications and changes chinese engineers made and above all their testing data. Surely you don't want to play the smug European believing blindly that what can't be X, Y, or Z (e.g. economically feasible) in Europe cannot be X, Y, or Z elsewhere? ;-)
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Old December 28th, 2009, 03:13 AM   #959
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Depending on the time of year, in Australia you can get an airfare from Brisbane to Sydney (1,000km) for about that much. Takes about 1 hour on the plane.
which price...48€ or 100€?

And I doubt what you are saying is correct unless the plane flies supersonic which no commercial plane does. Lets say between 90-120 mins is more accurate time adjusting for take offs and landings. Figure arriving earlier for airports, and going to and from airport to city centers and it makes it more than 3 hrs in total.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 03:37 AM   #960
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Originally Posted by KB View Post
which price...48€ or 100€?

And I doubt what you are saying is correct unless the plane flies supersonic which no commercial plane does. Lets say between 90-120 mins is more accurate time adjusting for take offs and landings. Figure arriving earlier for airports, and going to and from airport to city centers and it makes it more than 3 hrs in total.
48€, and from takeoff to landing is about 70 minutes - but depends on the wind etc. I don't include waiting times, or taxi times.
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