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Old July 8th, 2015, 02:19 PM   #9661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
The main reason the E1/E4 were/are being withdrawn (other than reaching end-of-service life) is their design purpose no longer exists- which was to transport long-distance commuters from far outer suburbs and housing developments to the center city. With real estate being more affordable in central Tokyo, people are moving back into the city rather than settling for a tract home in some boondock town in one of the rural Kanto prefectures.
Are there any outer suburbs in China?
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Old July 8th, 2015, 02:45 PM   #9662
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I don't think China is going through the same kind of asset bubble that Japan did when the E1/4s were getting built, it's not so impossible to live near the city centre (in the current climate at least).
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Old July 8th, 2015, 04:37 PM   #9663
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I don't think China is going through the same kind of asset bubble that Japan did when the E1/4s were getting built, it's not so impossible to live near the city centre (in the current climate at least).
Which city centre, though?
Is it easy to put children to school in Shanghai with e. g. a Wuxi hukou?
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Old July 9th, 2015, 04:04 AM   #9664
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The hukou system is unrelated to that, it affects city development patterns in different ways.
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Old July 9th, 2015, 04:43 AM   #9665
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any models of the 380-D out there? 3d or physical?
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Old July 9th, 2015, 05:04 AM   #9666
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It's such a shame that the railway specifications don't allow for double decker high speed rail, which exists in France and Japan. It would have doubled capacity at almost no cost.
There are some negatives of double deckers. They do not double the capacity because of stair space you need and more importantly they need to be shorter for the same axle load, so maybe 50%... They have higher center of gravity and their cross section is bigger, too, so, have somewhat larger friction. All translates into negatives for high speed. I think having longer trains is just the better solution and China went with 16 car trains for big part of its high speed train sets.
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Old July 9th, 2015, 10:40 AM   #9667
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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
The hukou system is unrelated to that, it affects city development patterns in different ways.
Different way, yes, but does that diffent way create demand for commuting?
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Old July 9th, 2015, 01:07 PM   #9668
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
There are some negatives of double deckers. They do not double the capacity because of stair space you need and more importantly they need to be shorter for the same axle load, so maybe 50%... They have higher center of gravity and their cross section is bigger, too, so, have somewhat larger friction. All translates into negatives for high speed. I think having longer trains is just the better solution and China went with 16 car trains for big part of its high speed train sets.
I would assume all new and most older (perhaps modernized) stations can accommodate 16 car trains. Maximum capacity (assuming train intervals of no more than 3-4 minutes) has also not been (and is not anywhere near) reached on any line.

It may be a problem for France or Japan to retrofit station platforms to accommodate longer trains which is why solutions like double-decker trains may be viable in some cases there. China doesn't have any such problems it seems.

Last edited by Pansori; July 9th, 2015 at 01:40 PM.
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Old July 9th, 2015, 03:42 PM   #9669
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I would assume all new and most older (perhaps modernized) stations can accommodate 16 car trains. Maximum capacity (assuming train intervals of no more than 3-4 minutes) has also not been (and is not anywhere near) reached on any line.
Chengdu-Dujianyan high speed railway normally uses 8 car trains.
Are all stations of Chengdu-Dujiangyan high speed railway built to accommodate 16 car trains?
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Old July 9th, 2015, 04:21 PM   #9670
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I love the model




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Old July 9th, 2015, 04:32 PM   #9671
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Chengdu-Dujianyan high speed railway normally uses 8 car trains.
Are all stations of Chengdu-Dujiangyan high speed railway built to accommodate 16 car trains?
They all have standard 450-metre long platforms like all the other CRH stations, even Chengdu-Dujiangyan line is mostly regarded as a standalone fast metro.
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Old July 9th, 2015, 05:04 PM   #9672
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Beijing-Shanghai HSR near Tianjin, CRH380Ds being used for long distance services.
By 刘俊俊良良

G35 Beijing South - Hangzhou East


G34 Hangzhou East - Beijing South


G58 Ningbo - Beijing South


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Old July 10th, 2015, 03:20 AM   #9673
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Thanks!
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Old July 10th, 2015, 04:16 AM   #9674
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Hi all,

I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.

Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?

I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?

Thanks for any help!
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Old July 10th, 2015, 04:27 AM   #9675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolnidur View Post
Hi all,

I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.

Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?

I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?

Thanks for any help!
imo, I don't believe the 380A is any more technologically superior than say, the Shinkansen E5. The E5 can probably safely run 380kph with no issues. Economic viability and Japanese-level safety margins is what keeps the speed down. At 380kph, the 380A would've used far more electrical power, since aerodynamic resistance increases quadratically. Which is why the government was so eager to do the slowdown after wenzhou... saves $$$. In addition, the Chinese tracks are less curvy, which certainly helps speed.

The 380A, wasn't it based off Shinkansen E2 technologies? Chinese engineers took that train and beefed it up...

As for these new fancy CRH prototype trains, who knows?
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Old July 10th, 2015, 04:46 AM   #9676
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E2 can not run over 300km/h,CRH380A get some technology and ideas from ICE3.
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Old July 10th, 2015, 05:17 AM   #9677
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The most important parts for HSR is electric elements,this is the reason why Siemens is a leader in HST.but after 10 years experience,we find that bombardier is the No.1,their ideas are really advanced,for example,the bogie,bombardier's bogie is really simple,that means less parts and less faults.the train is more stable than any other trains.and The drivers give higher evaluation for Bombardier cockpit(CRH2 is the worst).the new CRH train gets many ideas from Bombardier.JP is good at Interior design,their train is more comfortable than others.Siemens' electric elements is good.
and we all rely on KNORR and Faville.
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Old July 10th, 2015, 06:36 AM   #9678
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abcpdo View Post
..Economic viability and Japanese-level safety margins is what keeps the speed down...
If Japan had current Chinese high speed rail network, they would have been running the trains at 380km/h as we speak.
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Old July 10th, 2015, 06:51 AM   #9679
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolnidur View Post
Hi all,

I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.

Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?

I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?

Thanks for any help!
Is is not that easy to find public documents about this. However, if you go CSR, the company which produces CRH380A, official webpage they say:

"In 2010, CRH380A high-speed EMU passed the patent retrieval by Davis Wright Tremaine LLP and the United States Patent and Trademark Office. More than 900 high-speed train-related patents were retrieved and none of them involved in patent infringement, so that CRH380A high-speed EMU is deemed to be China’s proprietary intellectual property right."

What that 900 patent include... one may want to check the google scholar for specific patents, if you can understand them...

Broadly speaking they say;

"The complete locomotive design reflects 10 technology innovation highlights: mechanics-flow thread type, excellent body vibration mode, high-gas-tight strength and air tightness body, large load and high security truck, advanced noise vibration technology, strong power green traction system, active control and low flow disturbance dual-pantograph technology, high safety low wear composite brake, humane, diversified and personalized services, and intelligent control, diagnosis and monitoring. "

Also, frankly I find wiki page informative for 380A.


Quote:
Technical features[edit]
According to CSR, the overall design of CRH380A reflects ten major goals.[2][8][9]

Low-resistance, streamlined head. The nose of the train has a resistance coefficient of less than 0.13, aerodynamic resistance was reduced by 6.1%, aerodynamic noise by 7%, aerodynamic lift by 51.7% and the lateral force acting on the head by 6.1%.

Vibration mode system matching. The CRH380A uses a lightweight aluminum alloy body whose total weight is no more than 9 t (8.9 long tons; 9.9 short tons), less than 17% of the entire vehicle; CSR has comprehensively improved the body structure, adopting a large number of new vibration damping materials. It also designed the bogie to match the performance of the body and optimized the train body's natural frequencies, which helps reduce structural vibrations at high speeds and improves ride comfort.

Highly pressurized tight body. The pressure change rate inside the train is less than 200 Pa (0.029 psi)/s, with the maximum pressure change inside the train remaining below 800 Pa (0.12 psi) compared with the standard value of 1,000 Pa (0.15 psi). This ensures good ride quality at high speed.

Safe and reliable high-speed bogies. The train is equipped with SWMB-400/SWTB-400 bolster-less bogies. These are a redesign of the SWMB-350/SWTB-350 bogies used by CRH2C; their critical instability speed is 550 km/h (342 mph). The new train's derail coefficient is 0.34 at a speed of 386 km/h (240 mph) while the maximum derail coefficient of the CRH2A is 0.73.[10]

Advanced noise control technology. By reducing sources of noise and adopting new sound absorbing and insulating materials, CSR has been able to control noise inside the train. The noise level is at 67dB - 69dB when running at 350 km/h (217 mph), which is similar to the CRH2A running at 250 km/h (155 mph).[10]

High-performance traction system, with YQ-365 motors manufactured by CSR Zhuzhou Electric Co., Ltd and CI11 Traction converters by Zhuzhou times electric co.,Ltd. The CRH380A has a new power unit configuration to maximize traction power. This allows the train to accelerate to 380 km/h (236 mph) in 7 minutes.

Regenerative braking with a maximum energy feedback rate of 95%. With each stop nearly 800 kWh of electric power can be fed back to the electric grid.
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Old July 10th, 2015, 07:03 AM   #9680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kolnidur View Post
Hi all,

I've read many of your informative posts -- thank you for sharing your expertise! I have some basic questions I am still struggling to see if we have any consensus/new understanding about China's technologies.

Let's take the CRH380A, which is specifically an example model that I want to understand how China made the breakthrough. I have heard theories that the bogie is the core innovation, but is this something that Siemens or others couldn't easily replicate? What is the most difficult bottleneck or 'secret sauce' that you think made the CRH380A faster than others?

I understand there are many moving parts (no pun intended) -- but which areas have China made true innovations in and how impressive are those breakthroughs from technological perspective?

Thanks for any help!
The Wiki page of CRH380A has summarised it quite well.

I have read something like even Minitry of Railways(now China Railway Corporation) own the full patents of CRH380A, 10% of the parts still need to be imported.
Don't really have the details what parts still need to be imported, as far as I know the development of indigenous gearbox for CRH380A has only been completed by CSR Qishuyan recently.

China has started the development of high speed railway rolling stock way before importing the technologies from Japan, Germany and France. Acturally a few prototypes have achieved over 300kph top speed, but the integration of own design and some foreign parts turned out to be unreliable.
After technology transfers from above countries, China had two proven platfroms to work with, CRH2A(based on E2-1000) and CRH3C(based on Velaro E). Then technology breakthroughs in different departments were achieved one by one and tested on these platforms. That's how CRH2C stage I and CRH2C stage II came out as prototype models before fully developed version, ie. CRH380A.

The officals from MOR may have claimed all the technologies were developed indigenously and China has become one of the leading countries in HSR technology for propaganda and marketing purposes, while we can pour scorn on that all day long, at the meantime the claim is getting closer to be justified each day.

As for technology breakthroughs, apart from integrating R&D departments, universities and manufactures into a team working together and throwing in endless funds, acquisiton can also play a important part in technology breakthroughs.
Here's one example of how to become one of the leading manufactures via acquisition.

http://www.drivesncontrols.com/news/...echnology.html

Quote:
A Chinese semiconductor manufacturer, Zhuzhou CSR Times Electric Co, has inaugurated a $240m IGBT (insulated gate bipolar transistor) production plant – said to be the first of its kind in China, and the second worldwide – incorporating technology developed by its UK subsidiary, Dynex Semiconductor.

The new plant, located in Zhuzhou, will make high-power IGBT chips and modules using eight-inch silicon wafers. In the first phase of operation, output is expected to reach 120,000 wafers and 1 million IGBT modules per year.

The new IGBT line is being operated by CSR’s newly formed semiconductor business. Dynex is its European subsidiary.

Last edited by voyager221; July 10th, 2015 at 08:04 AM.
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