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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:03 PM   #9761
Sunfuns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I have taken that HSR, and I could easily do that as a commute every day.
You are right time wise, but economically it would only make sense (for inhabitants) if government were to subsidise cheap fares. What I'm saying is that this is not a good use of public funds.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #9762
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Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The cost of the HSR makes it not feasible to be a commuting option. A month riding this twice a day is enough to rent an apartment in either city.
2200-2500 RMB a month is nowhere near enough to cover the rent of an apartment at a half decent location in Beijing. You will probably need similar if not more commuting time if you rent an apartment at that price in Beijing than commuting from Tianjin via HSR, not to mention that commuting within Beijing is generally less comfortable than riding HSR. Even if the cost is similar, there are other factors that may prompt ppl to choose intercity commuting, for instance, you get to stay with your family. There are daily commuters between Tianjin and Beijing and I remember reading their posts on weibo and forums, and in those cases the key factor is indeed the distance between stations and workplace/home. It won't be feasible if you need to ride an hour of subway to get to the station in either city.
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Old July 28th, 2015, 08:52 PM   #9763
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Looking at Tianjin-Beijing:
The slow trains have trip times from 1:14 (Z156, nonstop) to 3:04 (1462, 2 stops). Hard seat price ranges from 17 yuan 5 jiao to 23 yuan 5 jiao.

The G and C trains have trip times from 33 minutes to 49 minutes. Second class seat price ranges from 54 yuan 5 jiao to 58 yuan 5 jiao.

Is there a gap in the market for trains priced at 30...40 yuan per second class seat, fast and convenient (like, between 45 minutes nonstop to 1:30 but with much more than 2 stops)?
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Old July 29th, 2015, 02:40 AM   #9764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Beijing-Tianjin (ca 130 km apart) is too far for commuter service with or without HSR. I see no need to encourage widespread commuting from one place to another by subsidising such a service.
If the trip can be done in an hour for a reasonable fare then a commute market exists. (130 km is approximately 80 miles.)

New York's commute shed extends from Manhattan about a hundred miles (160 km) in every direction (that isn't in the sea).
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Old July 29th, 2015, 03:37 AM   #9765
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Is there a culture of firms paying the commuting fare in China as there is in Japan?

That's the main reason why the Shinkansen is actually a popular commuting option (though less so with more people ditching the horrors of nowheresville suburbia)
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Old July 29th, 2015, 05:47 AM   #9766
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Is there a culture of firms paying the commuting fare in China as there is in Japan?

That's the main reason why the Shinkansen is actually a popular commuting option (though less so with more people ditching the horrors of nowheresville suburbia)
Isn't JR East's Shinkansen no longer a major commuter network? They are retiring the double deck E4s. I heard the high speed commuting was only viable due to the sky high prices from the price asset bubble with people living further and further from work in central Tokyo. With today's prices in Japan it is no longer needed. I don't even see China reaching Japan's situation today.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 05:49 AM   #9767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Is there a culture of firms paying the commuting fare in China as there is in Japan?
There companies that do it, depends on the company obviously. One job I almost took give me 3000 allowance per month for reasonable expenses (which include commute and groceries etc) as long as I have produce a official receipt (发票).
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Old July 29th, 2015, 05:57 AM   #9768
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While that's true, there are still some who have decided to live in places like Atami which are close enough to commute on the Shinkansen with, while maintaining a relatively high quality of life (Living by the sea, quieter than Tokyo, less polluted etc.)

The E4s served places like Takasaki and Kumagaya which are seen as pretty shitty places to live, but indeed flourished as dormitory towns for the hordes of salarymen who were trying to piggyback off of Japan's boom and Tokyo's boom especially. They were willing to put up with a mundane home in a boring suburb if it meant that they could afford to be part of the Tokyo economic sphere.

Commuting by Shinkansen is still popular from towns like Karuizawa, Atami and Odawara, because it means you can have a better quality of life. Though the numbers are indeed lower, so the E4s aren't necessary.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 06:00 AM   #9769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Is there a culture of firms paying the commuting fare in China as there is in Japan?

That's the main reason why the Shinkansen is actually a popular commuting option (though less so with more people ditching the horrors of nowheresville suburbia)
I don't think so. Mainly because 5 years ago there was nothing to commute on.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 07:53 AM   #9770
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Reminding again - commuters do not need to have moved TO suburbs. For example, a lot of people live in Suzhou and Wuxi. Would it be viable for people FROM Suzhou and Wuxi to commute by HSR to work in Shanghai?
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Old July 29th, 2015, 08:33 AM   #9771
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Is there a culture of firms paying the commuting fare in China as there is in Japan?

That's the main reason why the Shinkansen is actually a popular commuting option (though less so with more people ditching the horrors of nowheresville suburbia)
Many firms I know in Shanghai do, especially joint ventures, but mostly the commute allowance is for taxi rides. They'd rather have you be in the office. Some firms will pay for people commuting between Shanghai and Suzhou on CRH as well, I think it's less than 40 Yuan round trip.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 09:59 AM   #9772
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Some firms will pay for people commuting between Shanghai and Suzhou on CRH as well, I think it's less than 40 Yuan round trip.
No. G trains are 39 yuan 5 jiao one way.
For Suzhou-Shanghai:
Slow train hard seat 14 yuan 5 jiao. Trip time from 48 minutes (Z39) to 2:19 (K463). Maximum 1 intermediate stop, all at Kunshan that I saw. Fastest train with that stop K8431 at 1:02.
G train second class seat 39 yuan 5 jiao as stated. Trip time from 25 minutes (many nonstops) to 45 minutes (G7215). Fastest train with 1 stop is 31 minutes of G7033 (stop at Kunshan South), fastest with 2 stops is 37 minutes of G7235 (stops at Kunshan South and Shanghai West)
D train second class ticket price 24 yuan 5 jiao to Shanghai, 25 yuan 5 jiao to Hongqiao. Trip time to Hongqiao from 28 minutes (many nonstops) to 48 minutes (D3001). Fastest trains with 1 stop are 33 minutes (both stop at Kunshan South), fastest with 2 stops is 40 minutes D2281 (Kunshan South and also Suzhou Industrial Park)

So... Would it be a good idea to ensure that there are frequent and regular D trains between Suzhou and Shanghai, which actually stop at Shanghai West, so that it would make sense to build a CBD at Shanghai West Staton?
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Old July 29th, 2015, 10:16 AM   #9773
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Commutes longer than ca 1 h (one way) are so wasteful from both individual and collective point of view that it would be best minimise them as much as possible. Sure there will always be some people who choose to do it for one reason or another. I know few at work who do it as a compromise with a spouse. Still it would be best not to encourage it as a widespread practice.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 10:33 AM   #9774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
No. G trains are 39 yuan 5 jiao one way.
For Suzhou-Shanghai:
Slow train hard seat 14 yuan 5 jiao. Trip time from 48 minutes (Z39) to 2:19 (K463). Maximum 1 intermediate stop, all at Kunshan that I saw. Fastest train with that stop K8431 at 1:02.
G train second class seat 39 yuan 5 jiao as stated. Trip time from 25 minutes (many nonstops) to 45 minutes (G7215). Fastest train with 1 stop is 31 minutes of G7033 (stop at Kunshan South), fastest with 2 stops is 37 minutes of G7235 (stops at Kunshan South and Shanghai West)
D train second class ticket price 24 yuan 5 jiao to Shanghai, 25 yuan 5 jiao to Hongqiao. Trip time to Hongqiao from 28 minutes (many nonstops) to 48 minutes (D3001). Fastest trains with 1 stop are 33 minutes (both stop at Kunshan South), fastest with 2 stops is 40 minutes D2281 (Kunshan South and also Suzhou Industrial Park)

So... Would it be a good idea to ensure that there are frequent and regular D trains between Suzhou and Shanghai, which actually stop at Shanghai West, so that it would make sense to build a CBD at Shanghai West Staton?
I was talking about D trains going to Shanghai. So the price must have risen in the past couple of years. Shanghai Station serves the Puxi CBD quite well with fairly short metro rides.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 10:49 AM   #9775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Shanghai Station serves the Puxi CBD quite well with fairly short metro rides.
How far from Shanghai station do metro rides get inconveniently long?

Is Nanxiang North Station easily reached by metro?
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Old July 29th, 2015, 06:49 PM   #9776
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I'm curious, how is the Shanghai Metro "Line 22"/Jinshan Railway doing? Is it still running with a CRH2 or will it be changed over to a CRH6? I can't seem to find information on this local CRH line.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 07:18 PM   #9777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I was talking about D trains going to Shanghai. So the price must have risen in the past couple of years. Shanghai Station serves the Puxi CBD quite well with fairly short metro rides.
What I don't understand is, to reduce commute times, is why Chinese cities cannot become more compact? Why not then move things into cities and try to reduce time spent commuting?
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Old July 29th, 2015, 07:21 PM   #9778
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Originally Posted by Cosmicbliss View Post
So the solution is to relocate offices around HSR stations and encourage CBDs around HSR stations? Here in India there is a monthly pass system for commuter rail. Why not a Beijing-Tianjin HSR monthly pass? Or maybe reduce fares somewhat and reduce property taxes around HSR and near lines so that you avoid the self-defeating thing of travelling 45 minutes by metro to your office.
Incomes won't support HSR commutes.

Source : http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_21020693.htm

Data provided by the National Bureau of Statistics (NBS) show the average annual income of urban employees in the non-private sector rose by 9.4 percent year-on-year to 56 339 yuan at a national level. Taking into account price rises, the average salary increased by 7.1 percent.

Urban employees in the private sector earned 36,390 yuan on average, experiencing a growth rate that surged by 11.3 percent, or 9.0 percent in real terms.


An 100 yuan a day intercity commute becomes a significant chunk of their average wage. (2000 yuan a month, 24 000 yuan a year)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamstergogogo View Post
2200-2500 RMB a month is nowhere near enough to cover the rent of an apartment at a half decent location in Beijing. You will probably need similar if not more commuting time if you rent an apartment at that price in Beijing than commuting from Tianjin via HSR, not to mention that commuting within Beijing is generally less comfortable than riding HSR. Even if the cost is similar, there are other factors that may prompt ppl to choose intercity commuting, for instance, you get to stay with your family. There are daily commuters between Tianjin and Beijing and I remember reading their posts on weibo and forums, and in those cases the key factor is indeed the distance between stations and workplace/home. It won't be feasible if you need to ride an hour of subway to get to the station in either city.
Well, the average middle class won't be living in a half decent location anymore, but commute from beyond the 5th ring road into town. The average urban income is not sufficient to rent and do expensive HSR commutes. Renting on your own is also out of reach to begin with.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 08:13 PM   #9779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmicbliss View Post
What I don't understand is, to reduce commute times, is why Chinese cities cannot become more compact? Why not then move things into cities and try to reduce time spent commuting?
Because Chinese cities are already as compact as you can get, for example Shanghai has a population four times of New York's. Traffic congestion, limited living space, and crowding public services facilities are huge issues that the only way to alleviate is to dissipate the population.
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Old July 29th, 2015, 08:23 PM   #9780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How far from Shanghai station do metro rides get inconveniently long?

Is Nanxiang North Station easily reached by metro?
I would say anything that takes longer than 30 minutes would be long. Nanxiang North doesn't have direct metro service, the closest one is Nanxiang station of Metro Line 11 which is about a mile away walking.
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