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Old September 10th, 2015, 07:51 PM   #9941
Grunnen
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From what I have seen, the railway infrastructure in China seems to be well-maintained. Not just the high speed corridors, but also non-electified single track lines such as Guilin - Changsha.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 12:45 AM   #9942
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I was under the impression that China had and still has a very well maintained railway infrastructure before CRH. Also aren't ballastless tracks like on the high speed railway bridges much easier to maintain? I know very little about maintenance of railway track.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 09:27 AM   #9943
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I think no one really doubts China's ability to maintain technical infrastructure on the railways, however the station is one concern, often the stations are still perfectly functional but will show various cosmetic wear. Hongqiao for example is considerably dirtier than five years ago.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 07:21 PM   #9944
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Quote:
Originally Posted by india View Post


Lay your worries to rest because China isn't India. Catch my drift?
Well China may not be India but the population of the two countries is almost the same. With the kind of load stations have to deal with, it is tough to keep things clean.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 07:29 PM   #9945
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Originally Posted by Cosmicbliss View Post
Well China may not be India but the population of the two countries is almost the same. With the kind of load stations have to deal with, it is tough to keep things clean.
China has much fewer passengers.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 09:09 PM   #9946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
China has much fewer passengers.
That is simply not true. This is a clear example of apples and oranges comparison. India's passenger numbers include commuter rail which colossal. It is like including metro passenger numbers for China.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 11:03 PM   #9947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
That is simply not true. This is a clear example of apples and oranges comparison. India's passenger numbers include commuter rail which colossal. It is like including metro passenger numbers for China.
This merely shows that commuter rail in China is still underdeveloped. This means of transportation was not being developed until very recently (not sure why). This is starting to change and China's rail passenger numbers are likely to eclipse those of India at some point but there's nothing wrong in making such comparisons. For instance Shanghai and Beijing have very small/nonexistent commuter rail systems. Even small cities in Germany have overall larger commuter rail systems for comparison.

As for maintenance I understand the concerns about maintenance of stations. There are reasons to be concerned given the track record of poor maintenance of large public buildings (not necessarily stations or infrastructure) even in first tier cities in China. Look no further that Zaha Hadid's Opera House in Guangzhou. Sometimes even fairly new buildings look like as if they are not cleaned, fixed or maintained properly and I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice this.
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Old September 11th, 2015, 11:40 PM   #9948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
This merely shows that commuter rail in China is still underdeveloped. This means of transportation was not being developed until very recently (not sure why). This is starting to change and China's rail passenger numbers are likely to eclipse those of India at some point but there's nothing wrong in making such comparisons. For instance Shanghai and Beijing have very small/nonexistent commuter rail systems. Even small cities in Germany have overall larger commuter rail systems for comparison.
I somehow disagree because you need to consider the other modes of transport. Huge explosion of metro construction in Chinese cities is partially inhibiting commuter rail development. In other words, for example, Beijing metro is so big, some lines can be easily considered as commuter rail lines.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:09 AM   #9949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
India's passenger numbers include commuter rail which colossal. It is like including metro passenger numbers for China.
While several HSR stations of China do have metro service, they tend to be in suburbs and not be main interchanges of metro. Which still means that rail stations in India or Japan which are interchanges of both long distance and commuter rail have to deal with much bigger passenger numbers.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 01:10 AM   #9950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I somehow disagree because you need to consider the other modes of transport. Huge explosion of metro construction in Chinese cities is partially inhibiting commuter rail development. In other words, for example, Beijing metro is so big, some lines can be easily considered as commuter rail lines.
Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.

Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core.

Some perfect examples of metro and commuter rail can be found in Germany.

The bottom line is that China's rail passenger numbers are deservedly low compared to India because China doesn't have commuter rail systems while India does (even if they're shabby, overcrowded and are generally not up to very high standards). Numbers are correct and there's nothing to question there.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 01:59 AM   #9951
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Do you know how the PRD Intercity lines will be classified? The only finished line, Guangzhou - Zhuhai, appears on the schematic high speed rail map, but the current construction in Shenzhen is called "Metro line 11" if I remember it correctly.

(That network will be the first large-scale commuter rail network in China, I think.)
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Old September 12th, 2015, 03:28 AM   #9952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.
What about;

Shanghai: Jinshan Line
Wuhan: Wuxian, Wuhang and Wuxiao Lines as part of the Megapolis Area Lines
Zhengzhou: Zhengkai (as well a three or four more under construction)
Chengdu: Chengguan Line (to Dujiangyan and branch to Pengzhou)

And then there are intercity lines;

Jilin: Changchun to Jilin
Guangdong: Guangzhou to Zhuhai
Yangtze River: Shanghai to Nanjing, Shanghai to Hangzhou and Hangzhou to Nanjing
Jiangxi: Nanchang to Jiujiang

These are all greater than a metro system in terms of length and stopping frequencies, but less than part of the high-speed rail due to their short lengths. I've used the Chengguan numerous times for the explicit purpose *of* commuting between Chengdu and its suburbs; the transfer station at Xipu is insanely full during morning and evening rush hours with people using the Chengguan line. I know you use the quantifier "proper," what exactly do you define as a commuter line?
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Old September 12th, 2015, 03:40 AM   #9953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 孟天宝 View Post
I know you use the quantifier "proper," what exactly do you define as a commuter line?
Something like this? And I don't mean line. I mean system which is sufficient to serve the city and its surroundings. In Shanghai's case this should be many times larger with even bigger gaps between stations.

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Old September 12th, 2015, 10:53 AM   #9954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.

Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core.

Some perfect examples of metro and commuter rail can be found in Germany.
How about East Rail of Hong Kong? Is it not a "commuter rail"?
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:07 PM   #9955
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Actually, the necessity of extensive commuter rail networks can also be seen as a failure to create chances for people to live near their work (or to find work near their home).
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:13 PM   #9956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
Actually, the necessity of extensive commuter rail networks can also be seen as a failure to create chances for people to live near their work (or to find work near their home).
So can necessity of freeways.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:19 PM   #9957
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Having gone through the misery of commuting for 2 hours to work every day during morning rush hour last year, I'm not a big fan of commuter networks. It is certainly a failure to provide reasonable housing near work.

However, with rapid development of high-speed links in Pearl River Delta, Yangtze River Delta and Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei regions, I suppose these will become commuter networks in the future. With correct pricing structure in place, these high speed links could be spacious, comfortable and provide good wifi throughout the commute.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:22 PM   #9958
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Originally Posted by dbhaskar View Post
It is certainly a failure to provide reasonable housing near work.

However, with rapid development of high-speed links in Pearl River Delta, Yangtze River Delta and Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei regions, I suppose these will become commuter networks in the future.
The problem is failure to use the existing infrastructure.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:30 PM   #9959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The problem is failure to use the existing infrastructure.
It will come about. It takes time for people's attitude to change. A lot depends on real estate prices, quality of life in satellite cities, connectivity between high-speed stations and local metro networks, service quality (wifi, cellular network, ability to get work done while on commute) etc. I am optimistic that the infrastructure will see better use in the future.
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Old September 12th, 2015, 12:30 PM   #9960
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Those commuter networks, in Europe at least, are not used exclusively for people to go to work and back. Where I live they are also close to full on weekends and in evening. People use them to go to city for shopping and entertainment and to countryside for visiting friends, hiking etc. A lot higher population density in coastal China so one would expect even more patronage.
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