daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 12th, 2015, 12:37 PM   #9961
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbhaskar View Post
It will come about. It takes time for people's attitude to change. A lot depends on real estate prices, quality of life in satellite cities, connectivity between high-speed stations and local metro networks,
And it takes time for infrastructure and buildings to change.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 12th, 2015, 03:15 PM   #9962
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Those commuter networks, in Europe at least, are not used exclusively for people to go to work and back. Where I live they are also close to full on weekends and in evening. People use them to go to city for shopping and entertainment and to countryside for visiting friends, hiking etc. A lot higher population density in coastal China so one would expect even more patronage.
Exactly. It simply provides better, faster and more convenient transport connectivity regardless if it's used to go to work or to a nature retreat on the weekend. The argument of "not being able to provide housing near work place" is beyond absurd. This could be said about ANY transport links. Existence of metros, expressways and even large streets is an indicator of bad geographical distribution of residences and workplaces? Pardon me but what a nonsensical argument.

The reality is that Chinese cities need better commuter rail connectivity because at the moment it's either nonexistent or almost nonexistent.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2015, 04:28 PM   #9963
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,098
Likes (Received): 58

The reality is that in a city like Shenzhen, about half of all inhabitants are factory workers who live in dormitories or apartments right next to the factory and can walk to their work every day. But office workers on average also live significantly closer to their work compared to western countries. And Chinese cities are built compactly, without an endless sprawl of suburban housing. This saves precious agricultural land and makes it feasible to have, say, a third of people walking or cycling and a third of people travelling by bus or metro - rather than 20% by commuter rail and the other 80% by car.

I do agree that Chinese cities need better rail connectivity, but I think that in the Chinese context, intercity rail within these mega-city-regions is more important. And that's what is being built as we speak, right?
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2015, 05:49 PM   #9964
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

http://pan.baidu.com/s/1jGIUz7g

the promo of the new 350KM/H high speed train,1080p
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2015, 08:30 PM   #9965
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18209

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Those commuter networks, in Europe at least, are not used exclusively for people to go to work and back. Where I live they are also close to full on weekends and in evening. People use them to go to city for shopping and entertainment and to countryside for visiting friends, hiking etc. A lot higher population density in coastal China so one would expect even more patronage.
People should stop applying the European transit model to China blindly.

A large percentage of the population in the wealthy East Coast cities are migrants. When I say large, I'm talking about 40%-ish. Much of these are from the poorer reaches and live in on-site dormitories. They don't commute, and certainly don't have the disposable incomes to travel around the city for a cultural or shopping experience on their days off. Whatever they save they push back to the rural areas to support their families.

For the growing middle class who do have disposable income, they don't need to travel far for their everyday needs as well. Cities are built with higher densities and integrated facilities, so the supermarket, doctor's office, and school should not be a far walk away from home. If they need to move around the city, the subway system has expanded to reach them. Whether the concept of commuter rail is needed when there is a subway line nearby needs to be further debated, but I don't think is essential given the overlap.

Intercity commutes are even more silly. Average urban workers make only a few thousand RMB a month. They won't be able to afford an expensive long commute to the next city on a regular basis. If they want to splurge, take a CRH train. Those are available for the wealthy large city areas in the PRD, YRD and Beijing-Tianjin area.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!

Zaz965 liked this post
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 12th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #9966
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunnen View Post
The reality is that in a city like Shenzhen, about half of all inhabitants are factory workers who live in dormitories or apartments right next to the factory and can walk to their work every day. But office workers on average also live significantly closer to their work compared to western countries. And Chinese cities are built compactly, without an endless sprawl of suburban housing. This saves precious agricultural land and makes it feasible to have, say, a third of people walking or cycling and a third of people travelling by bus or metro - rather than 20% by commuter rail and the other 80% by car.

I do agree that Chinese cities need better rail connectivity, but I think that in the Chinese context, intercity rail within these mega-city-regions is more important. And that's what is being built as we speak, right?

Shenzhen true but what about the entire PRD? How do I get from Futian to say Dongguan on a train without any hassle? Or from Zhongshan to Foshan? I know there are some very good commuter rail development examples in the PRD (Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICT being one) but overall this part of transit network development is still extremely underdeveloped. Commuter railways should be criss-crossing dense regions such as PRD or Shanghai and one should be able to get from one point to another on a train without a need to buy a time-specific ticket.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2015, 12:05 AM   #9967
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1jGIUz7g

the promo of the new 350KM/H high speed train,1080p
Video not working for me. Shows a message about logging in to Baidu account. Is it available on Youku?

Edit: it seems I found it. Put in on Youtube


Last edited by Pansori; September 13th, 2015 at 12:19 AM.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2015, 04:10 AM   #9968
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Video not working for me. Shows a message about logging in to Baidu account. Is it available on Youku?

Edit: it seems I found it. Put in on Youtube

you can download the video,click the second button on the right.
__________________

Silly_Walks liked this post
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2015, 06:40 AM   #9969
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18209

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Shenzhen true but what about the entire PRD? How do I get from Futian to say Dongguan on a train without any hassle? Or from Zhongshan to Foshan? I know there are some very good commuter rail development examples in the PRD (Guangzhou-Zhuhai ICT being one) but overall this part of transit network development is still extremely underdeveloped. Commuter railways should be criss-crossing dense regions such as PRD or Shanghai and one should be able to get from one point to another on a train without a need to buy a time-specific ticket.
Because people don't live in Dongguan and work in Shenzhen, or live in Zhongshan and work in Guangzhou. Intercity commutes are rare in China. The difference in housing costs are more than offset by the train tickets.

Shenzhen to Guangzhou on the CRH costs about 80 RMB. When an average urban worker makes only 4000 RMB a month, clearly such long-distance commutes are unaffordable even if the cost halves with a slower train.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2015, 07:19 AM   #9970
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Because people don't live in Dongguan and work in Shenzhen, or live in Zhongshan and work in Guangzhou. Intercity commutes are rare in China. The difference in housing costs are more than offset by the train tickets.

Shenzhen to Guangzhou on the CRH costs about 80 RMB. When an average urban worker makes only 4000 RMB a month, clearly such long-distance commutes are unaffordable even if the cost halves with a slower train.
Who said they have to commute all the way from Guangzhou to Shenzhen? Why not between Zhangmutou and Dongguan Changping?

The point is that vast (and dense) areas surrounding major cities in China haven't got any local rail connectivity with the surrounding region. You simply can't get ahywhere by train whether you wan't to go to work or to do shopping in the nearby town or go visit your grandma. In such a heavily urbanized region there is no reason not to have a dense commuter railway system like Tokyo, London or German cities.

And what does CRH ticket price have to do with commuter rail? It doesn't have to be CRH and doesn't have to cost 80RMB and neither does it have to be as fast. The purpose of commuter rail is not to connect Guangzhou with Shenzhen (this is already done) but to inter-connect the entire region and so maximize the economic potential by enabling people to move faster and cheaper not just between major centers but also between areas laying inbetween.

Last edited by Pansori; September 13th, 2015 at 07:26 AM.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2015, 10:23 AM   #9971
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
People should stop applying the European transit model to China blindly.

A large percentage of the population in the wealthy East Coast cities are migrants. When I say large, I'm talking about 40%-ish. Much of these are from the poorer reaches and live in on-site dormitories. They don't commute,
All of which is true for some European cities, and has been true for many European cities, Japanese cities and Indian cities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
and certainly don't have the disposable incomes to travel around the city for a cultural or shopping experience on their days off. Whatever they save they push back to the rural areas to support their families.

For the growing middle class who do have disposable income, they don't need to travel far for their everyday needs as well. Cities are built with higher densities and integrated facilities, so the supermarket,
Shopping is not just a "cultural experience". It means saving a lot of money.
Say that your migrant worker migrates from Shaoguan to Guangzhou, and gets a job not in the central city in the walking distance of Guangzhou Station, but in a suburb where land is cheaper for factories, and lives in a dormitory in walking distance of the factory.

And saves money for several months for a major purchase he does not make every week. Like, to make an example, a computer for his parents and child back home.
Where?
The nearby supermarket, where he walks to shop for food every day?
There probably is electronics section with a few computers...
Bur I suspect that it is going to have poor choice, high markups etc. Letīs say he gets the computer for 4000 yuans.
Send the cash to Shaoguan and let his parents buy the computer themselves?
Shaoguan probably has a supermarket, too. But one supermarket, with the same issues. Restricted selection, high markups.
But how about, after spending several months earning the cash, spend a free day finding best use for it? Go to a major market, which is not at a daily walking distance. Visit several shops and market stalls. Compare the offers. Look out for discounts and good deals. And find a better computer for 3000 or 2000 yuans. End up with saving a lot of money.
Thatīs what really matters for shopping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
doctor's office, and school should not be a far walk away from home. If they need to move around the city, the subway system has expanded to reach them. Whether the concept of commuter rail is needed when there is a subway line nearby needs to be further debated, but I don't think is essential given the overlap.
It is essential. Commuter rail goes much further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Intercity commutes are even more silly. Average urban workers make only a few thousand RMB a month. They won't be able to afford an expensive long commute to the next city on a regular basis. If they want to splurge, take a CRH train. Those are available for the wealthy large city areas in the PRD, YRD and Beijing-Tianjin area.
Um? "Regular" commute does not specify frequency?
Shaoguan East to Guangzhou is 221 km, and hard seat costs 37 yuan 5 jiao.
Trip time 2:20 to 3:33.
Neither the time nor the money is affordable on regular basis daily - it would be 1650 yuan per month.
BUT regular basis weekly would be just 330 yuan a month.
For a migrant worker with wife and child back home in Shaoguan, the difference between getting laid once a year for New Year and getting laid every weekend might be worth 330 yuan per month...
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 13th, 2015, 09:21 PM   #9972
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 382

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.

Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core.

Some perfect examples of metro and commuter rail can be found in Germany.

The bottom line is that China's rail passenger numbers are deservedly low compared to India because China doesn't have commuter rail systems while India does (even if they're shabby, overcrowded and are generally not up to very high standards). Numbers are correct and there's nothing to question there.
You might missed my point. Beijing and Shanghai metros are two of the largest metro systems and their reach is about the same as the commuter rail map you showed for Munich, both around 60km diameter. So, these metro systems can indeed hinder need for a commuter rail system especially when you consider regional high speed rail systems start running in these cities. I mean, one can easily think Beijing-Tianjin HSR is commuter rail.

Also, again you may missed my point with Indian rail passenger numbers. I am not saying it is false. I am saying it includes ridership for people who are commuting daily, around 20km or so to the city centers because of a lack of proper metro system. Shanghai and Beijing metro is doing the same thing so should we include their passenger numbers to China National Rail?
__________________

saiho liked this post
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 02:23 AM   #9973
saiho
Registered User
 
saiho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 多伦多/多倫多
Posts: 1,360
Likes (Received): 1297

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post

Also, again you may missed my point with Indian rail passenger numbers. I am not saying it is false. I am saying it includes ridership for people who are commuting daily, around 20km or so to the city centers because of a lack of proper metro system. Shanghai and Beijing metro is doing the same thing so should we include their passenger numbers to China National Rail?
+1 Its a common fallacy to use Indian railways numbers to compare other intercity systems. Mumbai commuter in particular grossly inflates the numbers with it's +2.5 billion annual riders alone. If Mumbai was in China all that ridership would be covered by a oversized metro system. The numbers for India are correct but the analysis is flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Metro systems in China are very much like metro systems everywhere else. They are extensive, convenient, typically travel at up to 80km/h (with exceptions) and generally do not carry attributes of commuter rail. No major city in China has a proper commuter rail system and no metro system substitutes it. There simply isn't any commuter rail system.
Not necessarily, many lines in China substitute commuter rail. For example the most extreme cases are:

Shanghai Metro Line 16 is 60km long and ends ~55km away from shanghai city center with a max service speed of 120km/h with 4.5 km stop spacing and express skip stop services.
Nanjing Metro S1 will be a 79km long line that ends ~80km away from Nanjing city center max service speed of 100km/h with a 6.5 km stop spacing
Guangzhou Metro Airport line section of Line 3 ends ~28km away from Guangzhou city center max service speed of 120km/h with a 2 km stop spacing
Guangzhou Metro Line 14 is 54km long will end ~60km away from Guangzhou city center max service speed of 120km/h with a 4 km stop spacing and express skip stop services
Guangzhou Metro Line 21 is 61km long will end ~65km away from Guangzhou city center max service speed of 120km/h with a 2.9 km stop spacing and express skip stop services

Of course there are plenty of other lines that extend 30-40km from the city center with 2-3km stop spacing and operating up to 100km/h such as:
Shanghai Metro Line 11
Every Beijing Suburban Subway Line
Tianjin Metro Line 9
Wuhan Metro Line 11
Chongqing Metro line 6 etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Commuter rail may duplicate metro lines in some cases but generally have less frequent stops, faster maximum and average speeds and reach out much further outside city core.
pretty much the lines I just showed you above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
The bottom line is that China's rail passenger numbers are deservedly low compared to India because China doesn't have commuter rail systems while India does (even if they're shabby, overcrowded and are generally not up to very high standards). Numbers are correct and there's nothing to question there.
Apples to Oranges comparison.
China many of subways function like commuter rail and are not counted
India has a handful of commuter rail systems (Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Kolkata) that function like a metro and are counted.
India's high frequency (responsible for most of India's passenger numbers) suburban corridors radiate and terminate 30-40km away from the city with a 1.5-2km stop spacing, which is pretty much analogous to most crosstown Chinese subway lines.
So india's is high because it serves more markets (local, suburban and intercity).

Last edited by saiho; September 14th, 2015 at 05:30 AM.
saiho está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 06:48 AM   #9974
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Mumbai commuter in particular grossly inflates the numbers with it's +2.5 billion annual riders alone. If Mumbai was in China all that ridership would be covered by a oversized metro system. The numbers for India are correct but the analysis is flawed.



Not necessarily, many lines in China substitute commuter rail. For example the most extreme cases are:

Shanghai Metro Line 16 is 60km long and ends ~55km away from shanghai city center with a max service speed of 120km/h with 4.5 km stop spacing and express skip stop services.
And I sit in Europe at the end of a 57 km long commuter route with max service speed 120 km/h.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Guangzhou Metro Airport line section of Line 3 ends ~28km away from Guangzhou city center max service speed of 120km/h with a 2 km stop spacing
And Guangzhou North station is 27 km away from Guangzhou Station. What is the stop spacing on that 27 km section?
Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Nanjing Metro S1 will be a 79km long line that ends ~80km away from Nanjing city center max service speed of 100km/h with a 6.5 km stop spacing
Guangzhou Metro Line 14 is 54km long will end ~60km away from Guangzhou city center max service speed of 120km/h with a 4 km stop spacing and express skip stop services
Guangzhou Metro Line 21 is 61km long will end ~65km away from Guangzhou city center max service speed of 120km/h with a 2.9 km stop spacing and express skip stop services
These are "will"
Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Of course there are plenty of other lines that extend 30-40km from the city center with 2-3km stop spacing and operating up to 100km/h such as:
Shanghai Metro Line 11
Every Beijing Suburban Subway Line
Tianjin Metro Line 9
Wuhan Metro Line 11
Chongqing Metro line 6 etc.

Apples to Oranges comparison.
China many of subways function like commuter rail and are not counted
India has a handful of commuter rail systems (Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Kolkata) that function like a metro and are counted.
India's high frequency (responsible for most of India's passenger numbers) suburban corridors radiate and terminate 30-40km away from the city with a 1.5-2km stop spacing, which is pretty much analogous to most crosstown Chinese subway lines.
So india's is high because it serves more markets (local, suburban and intercity).
AND they are well established. They are not "will". NOR are these corridors built a few years ago into suburbs already built up around roads.
No, the corridors were there before suburbs. And stations were there before suburbs. They were there back when the railway was built through villages, and the village was built into a suburb because the station was there.
China has rail corridors, too. Shanghai Metro line 16, 56 km? Well, Kunshan Station was opened in 1905.
How many suburban stations on the 50 km section of Shanghai-Nanjing railway between Shanghai and Kunshan are receiving frequent passenger rail service? Other than Shanghai West?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 07:42 AM   #9975
saiho
Registered User
 
saiho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: 多伦多/多倫多
Posts: 1,360
Likes (Received): 1297

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And I sit in Europe at the end of a 57 km long commuter route with max service speed 120 km/h.

And Guangzhou North station is 27 km away from Guangzhou Station. What is the stop spacing on that 27 km section?

These are "will"
Well all are U/C and that is as guaranteed as it gets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
AND they are well established. They are not "will". NOR are these corridors built a few years ago into suburbs already built up around roads.
No, the corridors were there before suburbs. And stations were there before suburbs. They were there back when the railway was built through villages, and the village was built into a suburb because the station was there.
China has rail corridors, too. Shanghai Metro line 16, 56 km? Well, Kunshan Station was opened in 1905.
How many suburban stations on the 50 km section of Shanghai-Nanjing railway between Shanghai and Kunshan are receiving frequent passenger rail service? Other than Shanghai West?
Look, everyone. I am not arguing that China should not better utilize its mainline rail corridors, the Guangshen Railway should have MTR East Rail style local trains ASAP. I am saying that comparing the amount of passengers carried by Indian Railways an entity that serves local and intercity transport markets to that of China National Railway a long distance only service is extremely erroneous.
saiho está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 08:30 AM   #9976
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18209

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post

Shopping is not just a "cultural experience". It means saving a lot of money.
Say that your migrant worker migrates from Shaoguan to Guangzhou, and gets a job not in the central city in the walking distance of Guangzhou Station, but in a suburb where land is cheaper for factories, and lives in a dormitory in walking distance of the factory.Um? "Regular" commute does not specify frequency?

Shaoguan East to Guangzhou is 221 km, and hard seat costs 37 yuan 5 jiao.
Trip time 2:20 to 3:33.
Neither the time nor the money is affordable on regular basis daily - it would be 1650 yuan per month.
BUT regular basis weekly would be just 330 yuan a month.
For a migrant worker with wife and child back home in Shaoguan, the difference between getting laid once a year for New Year and getting laid every weekend might be worth 330 yuan per month...
Migrant workers are typically from the poorer interior provinces, and not between nearby cities. That's why the migrant rush tends to take place around the golden weeks, especially during the lead-up to Chinese New Year. They are moving hundreds of km away, and not tens where a hard seat is available for a short commute. They most certainly won't be weekend commuters. They don't have the luxury of doing this. A penny saved is a penny earned. The interior provinces are still quite poor and every yuan can go a long way. There is typically only 1 visit home a year during Chinese New Year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And saves money for several months for a major purchase he does not make every week. Like, to make an example, a computer for his parents and child back home.
Where?
The nearby supermarket, where he walks to shop for food every day?
There probably is electronics section with a few computers...
Bur I suspect that it is going to have poor choice, high markups etc. Letīs say he gets the computer for 4000 yuans.
Send the cash to Shaoguan and let his parents buy the computer themselves?
Shaoguan probably has a supermarket, too. But one supermarket, with the same issues. Restricted selection, high markups.
But how about, after spending several months earning the cash, spend a free day finding best use for it? Go to a major market, which is not at a daily walking distance. Visit several shops and market stalls. Compare the offers. Look out for discounts and good deals. And find a better computer for 3000 or 2000 yuans. End up with saving a lot of money.
Thatīs what really matters for shopping.
These workers live in dormitories and have cafeterias that offer them subsidized food. They don't need to go out to get groceries on a regular basis. Even for office workers in Lujiazui, local companies usually provide a cheap cafeteria that offers 3 meals a day. You have to realize these migrant workers get low wages but also receive housing and food benefits, reducing their need to leave their compounds on a regular basis.

Groceries at wet markets are also very cheap. Wet markets comprise of many shops that compete against each other. Nobody would commute between wet markets using public transport to compare prices. The transport cost alone would be equivalent to a dish or two on the dinner table already.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 09:47 AM   #9977
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
A penny saved is a penny earned. The interior provinces are still quite poor and every yuan can go a long way. There is typically only 1 visit home a year during Chinese New Year.

These workers live in dormitories and have cafeterias that offer them subsidized food. They don't need to go out to get groceries on a regular basis. Even for office workers in Lujiazui, local companies usually provide a cheap cafeteria that offers 3 meals a day. You have to realize these migrant workers get low wages but also receive housing and food benefits, reducing their need to leave their compounds on a regular basis.

Groceries at wet markets are also very cheap. Wet markets comprise of many shops that compete against each other. Nobody would commute between wet markets using public transport to compare prices. The transport cost alone would be equivalent to a dish or two on the dinner table already.
Yes. Wet markets and groceries must be near the consumers because they are not worth either the transport cost or even the time of commuting.

But Iīm addressing durable, higher cost items. Clothing. Consumer electronics. Household utensils.

Something that the ordinary worker does not buy every day, or even week, and which is worth saving money for, and saving money by spending time, commuting to a market, comparing prices.

Workers riding a commuter train to a flea market or a supermarket in search of a good deal every few weeks, when an item happens to wear out and need replacing or repairing, or the worker has money saved to invest in something new, doing so at different days according to need or when they get free time, would add up to a lot of passengers.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 03:54 PM   #9978
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18209

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes. Wet markets and groceries must be near the consumers because they are not worth either the transport cost or even the time of commuting.

But Iīm addressing durable, higher cost items. Clothing. Consumer electronics. Household utensils.

Something that the ordinary worker does not buy every day, or even week, and which is worth saving money for, and saving money by spending time, commuting to a market, comparing prices.

Workers riding a commuter train to a flea market or a supermarket in search of a good deal every few weeks, when an item happens to wear out and need replacing or repairing, or the worker has money saved to invest in something new, doing so at different days according to need or when they get free time, would add up to a lot of passengers.
Building a dedicated rail line that overlaps the subway to serve occasional travelers that you think go out once in a long while to buy items they cannot afford is not a good use of valuable resources. Keep in mind migrant workers that live in dormitories have uniforms and are not supposed to cook in their residential quarters, hence they get cafeteria food.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #9979
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Building a dedicated rail line that overlaps the subway ...
is not a good use of valuable resources.
Building a dedicated subway that overlaps an existing rail line is not a good use of valuable resources either.
Look at your own East Rail. Built back in 1910. NOT a "dedicated rail line" - it carries a lot of trains between Hung Hom and Lo Wu, but the tracks are shared with long distance trains to Guangzhou and Beijing.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2015, 06:12 PM   #9980
孟天宝
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Chengdu
Posts: 82
Likes (Received): 76

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But Iīm addressing durable, higher cost items. Clothing. Consumer electronics. Household utensils.

Something that the ordinary worker does not buy every day, or even week, and which is worth saving money for, and saving money by spending time, commuting to a market, comparing prices.

Workers riding a commuter train to a flea market or a supermarket in search of a good deal every few weeks, when an item happens to wear out and need replacing or repairing, or the worker has money saved to invest in something new, doing so at different days according to need or when they get free time, would add up to a lot of passengers.
I'm curious, you said earlier you live in Europe. Have you been to China or lived in the country? Or better yet, how many Chinese do you know in that socio-economic bracket?

One of the issues I'm seeing with your arguments is that they are very Euro-centric. People simply act differently and spend money differently. What an occidental mind might say "this is the logical way to do things" does not always translate well. It does not mean China has a better system, it is merely different. Your examples are valid and make sense, but only from a western perspective.

I've been to very small towns in the countryside and everything you listed was available at the local store. It doesn't mean the brand names are real (they aren't) but they will do the job. For many such people, they would not know *what* the real brand name is. Clothing is not exactly a "higher-cost" item in most places, unless you are buying a western brand which half the time would be bootlegged anyways.

Electronics are all locally made brands that copy, to some degree, the brands of better known products. When I went out to buy a water dispenser, I went to the nearest store that was just outside my building and bargained for some discount machine. It heats water so I'm pleased with it. Could I have taken the metro into town to go to a real store? Sure. But I wouldn't nor would anyone that lives here because it is infinitely more convenient to buy at the local electronics store. They can sell you pretty much anything you desire except for a humidifier or a dryer.

I would dearly love an interconnected commuter/metro system. But the reality is that I'm not sure how many would actually use it. Most of my friends use the metro infrequently yet they live right beside it. Everyone wants to get their drivers licenses and test their mettle on the roads. Perhaps the mentality of utilizing public transport hasn't seeped in yet. The vast majority see train travel as something that's done during Golden Week and at no other times. If you want to travel somewhere, the first thing that comes to mind is a bus or driving yourself.

Also the people I see on metro lines and commuter-style lines (Chengguan Line, Nanchang-Jiujiang ICR) are of higher socio-economic levels. Their salaries allow for travel during down times. For many low-level workers, they might not even get more than a day off. Travelling somewhere outside their local area would not be something that registers to them.
孟天宝 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium