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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:09 PM   #981
Ariel74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gincan View Post
When level 2 i fully functional trains will be able to run every 2,5 minutes, the performance for CTCS-3 and ETCS-2 are exactly the same, they are the same systems.
Thanks for the reference first of all.

It's not exactly the same. The designed performance for ETCS-2 is higher than the claimed actual performance of CTCS-3 (24 vs. 20 trains per hour running at 350km/h), but the latter is higher than the highest current performance of ETCS-2.

Here is a very brief description of the CTCS-3 on wuhan-guangzhou line, if you can read it:

http://www.cnr.cn/china/gdgg/200912/...5750290_5.html

As usual, they seem to have suppressed any mention of foreign input, for its patriotic readership.

Judging from these different sources, it appears that the chinese took ETMS and tweaked it perhaps both to optimize it (I am not technically competent enough to judge how important the items described in the link above are as improvements) as well as to make a system backward compatible with CTCS-2 and CTCS-1.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:16 PM   #982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siamu maharaj View Post
One must take into account a lot of things:

1) A 55 yuan ticket from Karachi to Lahore (about 1200 km) would be expensive for those who travel in 3rd class. I don't know but my guess is it'd cost around 30 yuan or so.

2) More importantly, it's about what people are used to opaying. On another site a Chinese person said that they're used to paying 11 yuan for a 12 hr. journey. Since they're used to it, paying 5 times more seems a lot. According to that person, she'd gladly pay 11 yuan and take the slower train that takes 9 hrs. longer.

If the ridership is very low, I can see the fare dropping to around 25 or so and then being gradually increased. That way people will get used to it and find it indispensible. Right now they're thinking 55 yuan, **** it.
When I was in China I never got a long distance train costing 11 yuan so I imagine that this ticket is for the "no seat" class where you fight for floor space. Since CRH trains don't have this class I don't really think the figure is particularly useful as a comparitor.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:31 PM   #983
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for commercial speed, that's 350kmh at most
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Old December 28th, 2009, 02:55 PM   #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherguevara View Post
When I was in China I never got a long distance train costing 11 yuan so I imagine that this ticket is for the "no seat" class where you fight for floor space. Since CRH trains don't have this class I don't really think the figure is particularly useful as a comparitor.
there is no "no seat" class in China. you can buy a standing-room ticket but pay for the same amount of money for a hard seat ticket. the standing-room tickets are only sold when there is no any seat available on the train. and you have to stand on the hard seat class all the way to your destination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by siamu maharaj View Post
2) More importantly, it's about what people are used to opaying. On another site a Chinese person said that they're used to paying 11 yuan for a 12 hr. journey. Since they're used to it, paying 5 times more seems a lot. According to that person, she'd gladly pay 11 yuan and take the slower train that takes 9 hrs. longer.
11yuan for a 12 hr journey? you can just dream about it in China.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 03:11 PM   #985
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Regarding 11 Yuan -

Hey, I just got it from an interview on another news site reporting on this story. If it's wrong, dont' shoot the messenger!! I personally have zero experience or knowledge of train travel in China.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 03:13 PM   #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MILIUX View Post
The rolling stock's interior looks very similar to ICE3.
That's because it is a derivative of Velaro, which is in turn a derivative of ICE 3.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 04:23 PM   #987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbaricManchurian View Post
there's still the lower speed trains for those who can't afford this
Thus the benefits of this OMG HIGH SPEED RAIL are enjoyed only by those those who are affluent enough to afford it.

It's a price increase of some 500% - hardly something that "isn't a problem."
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Old December 28th, 2009, 05:05 PM   #988
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Pretty impressive huh. 3hrs down from 9hrs!
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Old December 28th, 2009, 05:33 PM   #989
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Here's a video.Amazing.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQxMjE5ODg4.html

[IMG]http://i47.************/spc02c.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.************/2edazgp.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i47.************/20zzdyb.jpg[/IMG]
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Old December 28th, 2009, 05:34 PM   #990
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Discussion here is boring as hell. If they are saying trains will be running at 350km/h they will. It is not about Chinese engineering vs German or Japanese. No one here is claiming Chinese engineers do smt to trains so they can reach higher speeds. These railroads' technology mainly depends Germany. However, in China they are using very new very top end solutions (ballasless and elevated tracks, MODIFIED train sets etc.) so they can reach 350km/h. This is a fact. I really wonder you guys (who claim these trains cannot reach 350km/h) gave the same reaction when trains reach 300km/h from 250km/h. I am really having a hard time to understand you. Brand new tracks, brand new trains, top technology and moreover, contractors know that these lines should support 350km/h from start, right? If these trains cannot reach that speed then contractors failed to fulfill their duty. As I wrote in another thread, if a skyscraper told to be reach 550m hight I guess you wouldn't have said "no they cannot reach that hight, it will be max 350m"

Geeez...
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Old December 28th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #991
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
Guangzhou South Railway Station(The bigest Railway Station of South China)

The hub station of CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou(a part of Beijing-Guangzhou line) and Guangzhou-Shenzhen-Hongkong line.

image hosted on flickr
Thanks a lot for this picture. It looks like aliens built the place under this lighting. Do you have higher res? It will be a nice desktop for me
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Old December 28th, 2009, 06:51 PM   #992
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Love high speed trains... They look from future
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Old December 28th, 2009, 07:09 PM   #993
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Discussion here is boring as hell. If they are saying trains will be running at 350km/h they will. It is not about Chinese engineering vs German or Japanese. No one here is claiming Chinese engineers do smt to trains so they can reach higher speeds. These railroads' technology mainly depends Germany. However, in China they are using very new very top end solutions (ballasless and elevated tracks, MODIFIED train sets etc.) so they can reach 350km/h. This is a fact. I really wonder you guys (who claim these trains cannot reach 350km/h) gave the same reaction when trains reach 300km/h from 250km/h. I am really having a hard time to understand you. Brand new tracks, brand new trains, top technology and moreover, contractors know that these lines should support 350km/h from start, right? If these trains cannot reach that speed then contractors failed to fulfill their duty. As I wrote in another thread, if a skyscraper told to be reach 550m hight I guess you wouldn't have said "no they cannot reach that hight, it will be max 350m"

Geeez...

Nothing could be further from the truth, foxmulder. There IS such a thing as limits to available technology. It is not a trivial discussion what the current best technology, or a particular variant of that, can or cannot achieve. Your statements seem to evince the typical attitude of the chinese nouveaux riches in China, thinking that anything can be _ordered_ (bestellt) and bought, as long as you have money. Science, and all the practical endeavors that depend on it, cannot be simply ordered to do this or that. (I'd say the same thing and same absurd chinese attitude about love, but that would be going off topic). Nature, both outside us and in us, will set the limit.

We know that the technology of CHR3 used in the new line is largely based on German technology, and that technology as existing in Europe does not seem to allow safe and economic operation of trains at the speed of 350km/h. On the other hand, we also have the claims by the chinese that they improved upon that technology through their own numerous small scale innovations. So there is I suppose an interesting question about how much further the chinese innovations will make CRH3 go. Having said that, a categorical dismissal before the fact will be smug indeed.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 07:59 PM   #994
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How many times does it need to be pointed out? You persist in thinking that something uniquely Chinese is going on here. It isn't.

Here s Foxmulders point.

Europe;

30 years ago infrastructure managers specified track and train for 300km/h operation.
European Engineering companies spec'd it, designed it, and constructed it.
It now operates at the specified speed.

China
A few years ago infrastructure managers specified track and train for 350km/h operation.
European Engineering companies helped spec it, design it, and construct it.
It will then operate at the specified speed.

It is not rocket science. Of course Europeans can't run their 300km/h trains safely on their track designed for 300km/h at speeds above 300km/h! But they can on bits designed for 320km/h, and soon 330km/h, and soon after that 350km/h.

30 years is a long time in engineering - what you seem to fail to notice is that it was not China that first decided 350km/h was possible, it was the very European manufacturing companies you seem to think are incapable of delivering incremental increases in speed.

What you are also failing to appreciate is that more recent projects in Europe are specifying their track and train for higher speeds, but you will have to wait significantly longer to see it due to the longer time it takes anyone apart from China to do anything.

And don't get confused about the limits to available technology. This is a red herring that a lot of people get hung up on. There are always incremental opportunities. Always. Wasn't the Empire State Building at the edge of existing limits? That was 80 years and 600 metres ago.

Last edited by makita09; December 28th, 2009 at 08:06 PM.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 08:56 PM   #995
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
How many times does it need to be pointed out? You persist in thinking that something uniquely Chinese is going on here. It isn't.

Here s Foxmulders point.

Europe;

30 years ago infrastructure managers specified track and train for 300km/h operation.
European Engineering companies spec'd it, designed it, and constructed it.
It now operates at the specified speed.

China
A few years ago infrastructure managers specified track and train for 350km/h operation.
European Engineering companies helped spec it, design it, and construct it.
It will then operate at the specified speed.

It is not rocket science. Of course Europeans can't run their 300km/h trains safely on their track designed for 300km/h at speeds above 300km/h! But they can on bits designed for 320km/h, and soon 330km/h, and soon after that 350km/h.

30 years is a long time in engineering - what you seem to fail to notice is that it was not China that first decided 350km/h was possible, it was the very European manufacturing companies you seem to think are incapable of delivering incremental increases in speed.

What you are also failing to appreciate is that more recent projects in Europe are specifying their track and train for higher speeds, but you will have to wait significantly longer to see it due to the longer time it takes anyone apart from China to do anything.

And don't get confused about the limits to available technology. This is a red herring that a lot of people get hung up on. There are always incremental opportunities. Always. Wasn't the Empire State Building at the edge of existing limits? That was 80 years and 600 metres ago.
The same fallacy, here we go again. I wonder why no one just "specified" that their trains will run at 700km/h? That would be a much better number for china, enabling people to travel from Beijing to Hongkong in a mere 3 hours.

You are basically just claiming - without offering any reason to believe - that the Chinese and Europeans have or will have no trouble meeting the "specification" that their trains should run above 350km/h in commercial services. Some people in this forum, if you've paid any attention at all, are precisely denying that. They claim the basic construction principle of the trains operating today and the laws of nature make it impossible to run trains at 350km/h continuously and safely, just like, as I hope you will also agree, they make it impossible for trains constructed under these principles to run at 700km/h safely and economically.

Now what argument have you to offer against that, apart from the absolutely vapid observation that technology always advances???

(note that I am not siding with these people, I am just acknowledging that there is a point to the debate).

Last edited by Ariel74; December 28th, 2009 at 09:03 PM.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 09:08 PM   #996
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
How many times does it need to be pointed out? You persist in thinking that something uniquely Chinese is going on here. It isn't.
And which phenomenon precisely do I claim to be uniquely chinese??? I said there is generally speaking a question about what the best available technology can achieve. Uniquely chinese (perhaps also Russian, or in any country where there is a massive emergence of the nouveaux riches?) is just the _attitude_ that everything is possible to obtain, as long as one has money. [Not: as long as one works hard. That would be what we call the "American Dream"]
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Old December 28th, 2009, 11:10 PM   #997
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
You are basically just claiming - without offering any reason to believe - that the Chinese and Europeans have or will have no trouble meeting the "specification" that their trains should run above 350km/h in commercial services.
Puuuuurlease do not try to imply that I am committing a fallacy. As you are someone who is also interested in logic let me deconstruct your position.

Point of logic 1, YOU are claiming that 350km/h is not possible, whereas all the railway engineers in the world seem to think it is. I am not claiming anything. Therefore YOU are required to provide a reason to believe you, not the other way around.

The 2nd of your fallacies is to imply I said there would be 'no trouble' in meeting the higher specs. This is not what I said, nor is it the truth. Therefore you are arguing against your own fallacy.

The 3rd of your fallacies is to miss the reality within all that by refuting the truth that technology advances. Increases in speed relate to increases in energy, which requires stronger materials and better construction etc etc. This is just physics. The only way you can logically refute that advances in technology result in advances in performance is if you refute either the advances in technology or the physics. Which is it?

Quote:
I wonder why no one just "specified" that their trains will run at 700km/h?
Err, because that would be stupid.

The guys at Siemens and the guys at the Chinese govt sat down together to discuss possibilities, the guys at Siemens told them that 350km/h is possible. If you wish to specify it, then it will cost x.

If you want to argue with this go and argue with the engineers that built a 350km/h railway (either the Spanish one or the Chinese one) even though you say it can't be done, and don't fill this thread with red herrings and mindless garbage and misinformation about the Chinese.

Quote:
Now what argument have you to offer against that, apart from the absolutely vapid observation that technology always advances???
How about you tell us why we are stuck at 300km/h?

BTW in the UK we are currently specifying a 400km/h route, I await your answer with interest so that I can pass this info on, before we make a terrible mistake!
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Old December 28th, 2009, 11:14 PM   #998
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
And which phenomenon precisely do I claim to be uniquely chinese??? I said there is generally speaking a question about what the best available technology can achieve. Uniquely chinese (perhaps also Russian, or in any country where there is a massive emergence of the nouveaux riches?) is just the _attitude_ that everything is possible to obtain, as long as one has money. [Not: as long as one works hard. That would be what we call the "American Dream"]
The "something uniquely chinese" refers to your understanding of their process of specifying infrastructure.

What in fact they did do was sit down with the engineers and bash out a viable plan. In this they did exactly the same thing as everyone else would do.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 11:15 PM   #999
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
YOU are claiming that 350km/h is not possible,
Well, if you cannot even read, or read well enough to know what I wrote and what I did not write, then I don't see a point in responding to your ravings. Please, take them elsewhere.
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Old December 28th, 2009, 11:38 PM   #1000
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Thanks a lot for this picture. It looks like aliens built the place under this lighting. Do you have higher res? It will be a nice desktop for me
The station is uncompleted, so, just few of photos I can search.
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