daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old September 17th, 2015, 11:05 AM   #10041
hightower1
power of tower
 
hightower1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: melbourne
Posts: 150
Likes (Received): 80

Future plans...
hightower1 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old September 17th, 2015, 03:17 PM   #10042
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
If subway lines are overcrowded and reach further and further, taking ever longer for people to get from A to B, then it makes perfect sense to supplement those lines with commuter rail lines. Even in China.

I really don't get the discussion here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
How on earth an average worker can move a longer distance when there are no means to do that? Also who measures commute within one city in km anyway? Commutes are measured in time spent to commute not distance. I don't care how many km is to my work as long as I know how long it will take for me to get there. I really fail to see any sense in yor arguments. They don't hold any substance let alone 'economics'.
The large cities are working on creating an appropriately dense subway network for a city of their size. I don't think they have reached that optimal point yet, and construction continues on many lines across the country's large cities. So in the meantime, overcrowding continues. That should not imply people should move further away to solve the problem.

Chinese cities are generally compact. Beijing's 5th ring is actually not that far from the CBD, but there is a stigma to living far away, unlike in the West. We don't have inner city decay or middle class flight to suburbia in Asian cities.

But some people think overcrowding can be solved by creating commuter and express rail when people don't like to live far away, don't do long average commutes, and cannot afford the incremental cost of such a service due to low average incomes. Otherwise, there are plenty of nearby cities where intercity commutes are feasible with express (CRH) rail, but are not realistic from a cost perspective. People have the option of moving further out, such as Tianjin (for Beijing) and Suzhou (for Shanghai), but once you factor in the incremental transport cost, these people will be far worse off in the wallet by doing so. China's city planners realize this and while they want to promote regional integration to decentralize, they are building up their subway networks so people can effectively move around.

Moving further is not the right solution. The numbers and studies consistently point to that. Some people turn a blind eye to them though.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2015, 04:11 PM   #10043
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Chinese cities are generally compact. Beijing's 5th ring is actually not that far from the CBD, but there is a stigma to living far away, unlike in the West. We don't have inner city decay or middle class flight to suburbia in Asian cities.

But some people think overcrowding can be solved by creating commuter and express rail when people don't like to live far away, don't do long average commutes, and cannot afford the incremental cost of such a service due to low average incomes. Otherwise, there are plenty of nearby cities where intercity commutes are feasible with express (CRH) rail, but are not realistic from a cost perspective. People have the option of moving further out, such as Tianjin (for Beijing) and Suzhou (for Shanghai), but once you factor in the incremental transport cost, these people will be far worse off in the wallet by doing so.
What is the cost of travelling Beijing to Yangcun, 109 km from Beijing and 28 km from Tianjin?
Answer: hard seat on train number 6451 costs 6 yuan 5 jiao. Sic.
BUT - there is only 1 such train per day. Which takes 2:27.
The only other train Beijing-Yangcun is 1461 - and hard seat there costs 14 yuan 5 jiao.
Beijing-Tianjin costs 18 yuan 5 jiao to 23 yuan 5 jiao on number, K, Z and T trains, 39 yuan 5 jiao on D train (only one per day) and 54 yuan 5 jiao to 58 yuan 5 jiao on G and C trains.
It is no wonder CRH trains are unaffordable. My point is that express trains priced as non-CRH trains could be affordable for the passengers.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 17th, 2015, 08:02 PM   #10044
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The large cities are working on creating an appropriately dense subway network for a city of their size. I don't think they have reached that optimal point yet, and construction continues on many lines across the country's large cities. So in the meantime, overcrowding continues. That should not imply people should move further away to solve the problem.

Chinese cities are generally compact. Beijing's 5th ring is actually not that far from the CBD, but there is a stigma to living far away, unlike in the West. We don't have inner city decay or middle class flight to suburbia in Asian cities.

But some people think overcrowding can be solved by creating commuter and express rail when people don't like to live far away, don't do long average commutes, and cannot afford the incremental cost of such a service due to low average incomes. Otherwise, there are plenty of nearby cities where intercity commutes are feasible with express (CRH) rail, but are not realistic from a cost perspective. People have the option of moving further out, such as Tianjin (for Beijing) and Suzhou (for Shanghai), but once you factor in the incremental transport cost, these people will be far worse off in the wallet by doing so. China's city planners realize this and while they want to promote regional integration to decentralize, they are building up their subway networks so people can effectively move around.

Moving further is not the right solution. The numbers and studies consistently point to that. Some people turn a blind eye to them though.
Who mentioned moving further? Are you actually reading posts that you're replying to?
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2015, 07:09 AM   #10045
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

A plan for Hebei:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_21907321.htm

3453 km... by 2050!
__________________

:jax: liked this post
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2015, 02:15 PM   #10046
:jax:
Registered User
 
:jax:'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Södertälje
Posts: 1,303
Likes (Received): 540

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Chinese cities are generally compact. Beijing's 5th ring is actually not that far from the CBD, but there is a stigma to living far away, unlike in the West. We don't have inner city decay or middle class flight to suburbia in Asian cities.
Inner city decay is primarily an American phenomena, caused by taxation rules in my opinion, and seems to had significant reversals the last decade or so. With the American exceptionalism fading this is a universal rule, more central locations are on the whole more valuable and attractive. It's not special for China. Chinese cities have a wide range of densities in the built-up area, from super-dense to farmlands/wilderness, again like the rest of the world, though Chinese cities are bigger in total size and population (until beaten by other Asian and African cities).

Beijing (this basically goes for almost all the other huge urban regions as well) is growing much faster in girth than in population. It has doubled in population in 25 years, but the reach has increased much faster. I've been in Beijing about five year, during which the 5th ring is moving into the position the 4th ring had (then the centre was within the 3rd ring, the growth ring between 3rd and 4th, outside the 4th ring was residential, outside 5th ring was outskirts). The area covered by the 5th ring is more than double the area covered by the 4th. That means more variable density along the rings.

The railway ring in the article chornedsnorkack linked to seems to run parallel to the useful parts of 7th ring.



Now, the 7th ring, apart from the eastern and southern side, will not be a ring road, nor a ring, but a bypass. Beijing has finally hit a geographical constraint to growth, the mountain range in the north and west.



Based on the map I estimate the ring ("loop line") to be about 350 km in length, long enough to be HSR and for HSR to make sense, but much of the distance would have to go in tunnels through less populated mountain parts. The J Miyun-Zhuzhou should be cheaper to build and with much more traffic.
__________________

FM 2258 liked this post
:jax: no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 18th, 2015, 02:57 PM   #10047
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

How is the current state of progress of Tianjin-Baoding high speed railway?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2015, 01:12 PM   #10048
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

Jilin-Hunchun intercity line open today,design speed 250km/h,oparating speed 200km/h,and the high speed train reach the boader of China,North korea and Russia.

Hunchun station,with four language.




__________________
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 20th, 2015, 01:25 PM   #10049
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

The extended line of Beijing-Tianjian intercity line also open today,design speed 350km/h
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 12:14 AM   #10050
dbhaskar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 105
Likes (Received): 113

Extension line of China's first high-speed railway starts running

Source: Xinhua | September 20, 2015, Sunday

AN extension of China's first high-speed railway started services on Sunday with only about one hour travel time from Beijing to Tianjin's coastal commercial district.

The new line extends from Tianjin High Speed Railway Station, the previous terminal, to Yujiapu business district in Binhai New Area.

The extension is part of a bigger plan for the integration of Beijing, neighboring Tianjin Municipality and Hebei province.

"A one-hour transportation grid, formed by inter-city rails and metros, will be formed in a 70-kilometer radius around Beijing," said Zhou Zhengyu, director of Beijing transport commission.

The extension runs over 45 kilometers at a designed speed of 350 kilometers per hour. Yujiapu station is underground with convenient links to subway, buses and other public transportation. Besides the extension, at last six other inter-city lines in the city area are under construction.Twenty four new intercity rail lines will come into being in the region by 2050, with combined length of 3,453 km.

In addition, more than 940 kilometers of highway will be built in the next two years. "Travel time within the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei circle will be under three hours," said Zhou.

Transportation choices will also be diversified, Zhou said. "For example, more passengers from Beijing could depart from Tianjin airport. It will ease the pressure on Beijing airport," he said. All airports in the Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei will be managed by the same company.
__________________

Cosmicbliss, FM 2258 liked this post
dbhaskar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 04:41 PM   #10051
foxmulder
Registered User
 
foxmulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,135
Likes (Received): 381

Here is your "commuter rail"
foxmulder no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 05:49 PM   #10052
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Here is your "commuter rail"
How many stations exist between Beijing and Yujiapu?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 07:47 PM   #10053
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Interesting, didn't realize Yujiapu was open for business. Isn't everything still under construction? Need to check that thread.
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 09:48 PM   #10054
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Jilin-Hunchun intercity line open today,design speed 250km/h,oparating speed 200km/h,and the high speed train reach the boader of China,North korea and Russia.
Shortest trip time Hunchun-Jilin seems to be 2:17.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 09:50 PM   #10055
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Interesting, didn't realize Yujiapu was open for business. Isn't everything still under construction? Need to check that thread.
The station was meant to be open a little earlier (like a month or so ago). It's a very important landmark event. Prior to that there were no operating passenger railway in the area. I guess we'll soon start witnessing the 'ghost town' turn into city.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 21st, 2015, 11:32 PM   #10056
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Looks like Yujiapu Station is 5 km from existing Tanggu Station.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:21 AM   #10057
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Inner city decay is primarily an American phenomena, caused by taxation rules in my opinion, and seems to had significant reversals the last decade or so. With the American exceptionalism fading this is a universal rule, more central locations are on the whole more valuable and attractive. It's not special for China. Chinese cities have a wide range of densities in the built-up area, from super-dense to farmlands/wilderness, again like the rest of the world, though Chinese cities are bigger in total size and population (until beaten by other Asian and African cities).

Beijing (this basically goes for almost all the other huge urban regions as well) is growing much faster in girth than in population. It has doubled in population in 25 years, but the reach has increased much faster. I've been in Beijing about five year, during which the 5th ring is moving into the position the 4th ring had (then the centre was within the 3rd ring, the growth ring between 3rd and 4th, outside the 4th ring was residential, outside 5th ring was outskirts). The area covered by the 5th ring is more than double the area covered by the 4th. That means more variable density along the rings.

The railway ring in the article chornedsnorkack linked to seems to run parallel to the useful parts of 7th ring.

Now, the 7th ring, apart from the eastern and southern side, will not be a ring road, nor a ring, but a bypass. Beijing has finally hit a geographical constraint to growth, the mountain range in the north and west.

Based on the map I estimate the ring ("loop line") to be about 350 km in length, long enough to be HSR and for HSR to make sense, but much of the distance would have to go in tunnels through less populated mountain parts. The J Miyun-Zhuzhou should be cheaper to build and with much more traffic.
The population growth is heavily influenced by migrants, who don't have hukou and won't be purchasing real estate in the city. There is still plenty of space in the city for in-fill projects, but heights are limited due to the Forbidden City so they inevitably need to spread out. Doesn't mean they have reached their geographic limits for expansion though. They can tweak their variable density to achieve this.

We also need to keep in mind the recent real estate boom that the central government encouraged to drive growth has resulted in a glut in supply and ghost towns appearing across the country.

People keep talking about building lines making sense but forget to consider whether the cost of commuting is affordable for the average salary maker. You can't ignore that.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:23 AM   #10058
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What is the cost of travelling Beijing to Yangcun, 109 km from Beijing and 28 km from Tianjin?
Answer: hard seat on train number 6451 costs 6 yuan 5 jiao. Sic.
BUT - there is only 1 such train per day. Which takes 2:27.
The only other train Beijing-Yangcun is 1461 - and hard seat there costs 14 yuan 5 jiao.
Beijing-Tianjin costs 18 yuan 5 jiao to 23 yuan 5 jiao on number, K, Z and T trains, 39 yuan 5 jiao on D train (only one per day) and 54 yuan 5 jiao to 58 yuan 5 jiao on G and C trains.
It is no wonder CRH trains are unaffordable. My point is that express trains priced as non-CRH trains could be affordable for the passengers.
Don't think the train company will bear losses to subsidize passengers. China's railways, especially the higher speed ones, are quite profit-driven, and not so communist after all.

Would be silly to expect a fast train to be priced like a slow one.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2015, 03:28 AM   #10059
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Here is your "commuter rail"
Check the prices first to see if they are affordable for commuters.

Keep in mind business travel exists between the 2 cities and would drive any premium high-speed services. Occasional travels by the middle class, such as flights out of Tianjin airport, are also feasible.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 22nd, 2015, 12:52 PM   #10060
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Would be silly to expect a fast train to be priced like a slow one.
Train 6451 travels 2:27 for 109 km, average speed incl. stops 45 km/h.
C trains Beijing-Tianjin nonstop travel 33 minutes for 120 km, average speed 218 km/h.
There is plenty of space for trains with average speed 70 or 100 km/h including stops. And these should be much cheaper than the 218 km/h ones.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium