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Old October 4th, 2015, 07:41 AM   #10121
Cosmicbliss
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There's always four steps:

1. First you criticize and says it not needed.
2. Then you say it won't ever get built.
3. Then when it gets built you say its too costly.
4. When it proves successful than you keep quiet.

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Old October 6th, 2015, 04:06 AM   #10122
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Sounds like the media maybe you left out step 5

5. Criticize them for taking so long to build it saying it was long overdue, evidence of poor planning etc.
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Old October 6th, 2015, 08:45 AM   #10123
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Passenger flow is still growing every year,for example,the Number of passengers in National Day is:
2010: 8.29 million
2011: 8.92 million
2012: 9.14 million
2013:10.1 million
2014:11.7 million
2015: 13 million
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Old October 6th, 2015, 09:26 AM   #10124
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Passenger flow is still growing every year,for example,the Number of passengers in National Day is:
2015: 13 million
Big - but tiny compared to the total number of migrants in China.
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Old October 6th, 2015, 09:07 PM   #10125
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Big - but tiny compared to the total number of migrants in China.
Only a single day.
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Old October 6th, 2015, 09:37 PM   #10126
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How does the last New Sheep Year compare - the top single day, and total number of travellers one way?
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Old October 6th, 2015, 09:44 PM   #10127
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So I took the 17:50 D3692 from Guangzhou South to Nanning East yesterday evening and have to make a few observations.

'Ticket check' and secuity x-ray check in Guangzhou South was actually very quick. A couple of minutes each. No hassle there. But the problems started with boarding. There were two trains departing from the same gate (26 and 27) and perhaps over a thousand people boarding both trains at the same time. While boarding for another D train started a few minutes earlier the boarding for my train (D3692) also started. Or so was indicated on the screen at the gate. Then they switched off D3692 and only left the other D train which had to depart earlier. A guy with loudspeaker was calling passengers for that train. The crowd was huge and impatient. Only 5 minutes for D3692 to depart and boarding was halted just after starting while the other train just completed the boarding. A bit of a chaos just like it reads.

Eventually the original dearture time (17:50) was changed to 17:58 and real boarding finally started. The train departed 17:55. Five minutes behind schedule. Not sure if this was actually due to the boarding issues but judging from the stressful sightings at the gate it certainly looked like it.

The train was going slow (~150km/h) for quite a while until gaining speed after 100km or so. Arrived at Nanning East about 15 minutes behind schedule after being stationary for about 5 minutes just before entering Nanning East.

Now I'm not really sure why it was late but my assumption is that boarding had to be the main reason behind it. If all the seats are occupied (and it only was an 8 coach train. What if it was 16?) then you get a massive crowd near the boarding gate. Since the gate is somewhat limited in width and the boarding starts only 10 or so minutes before departure the capacity of the gate becomes limited and a potential bottleneck. It just about works if everything goes smooth but as soon as some obstacle occurs (automatic gates malfunction, some passenger doesn't know how to use them etc.) you get a delay. And that's a serious problem.

Now since the design of stations was done with such boarding procedure in mind they should have designed boarding gates capable of much higher throughput capacity to not only allow boarding of two 16 coach trains simultaneously but also allow space for any potential delay. Perhaps with additional stairs/escalators in the middle of the waiting hall because current design (which seems to be similar in all major stations) with only two actual boarding channels at each end of the waiting hall has too much potential to cause bottlenecks and delays what seemingly happened this time.

Otherwise they should relax the boarding procedure and instead concentrate on ticket checks upon boarding the train itself (at the platform) while allowing the people to enter the platform freely.

Current system is a recipe for trouble once passenger numbers soar like during this time of year. And is fundamentally inefficient even if most of the time it works ok.

Other than that the journey from Guangzhou to Nanning was perfect. Comfort level is extremely high even in the 2nd class (CRH2A train). Not just to do with the trainset itself but the track too. It just goes straight all the time without many turns. Or so it feels inside. Food and drink passing every once in a while if you're too lazy to go to the dining carriage yourself. A few times I actually had to look at the speed monitor to check if the train is going full speed (mostly 207km/h) or just snailing at 20km/h. You really can't tell. That's the level of track alignment and train-set comfort you get. If only the boarding was less of a hassle.
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Old October 6th, 2015, 11:59 PM   #10128
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Quote:
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This could increase the capacity of stations drastically. Perhaps by times if done properly. By simplifying train boarding procedure and general access to the station waiting halls. But how long will it take before this will become a viable solution in China? 10 years? Maybe 15?
it might be worthy of being considered if the average passenger mileage per trip in China shrinks to the Japanese/European numbers. currently the Chinese average is about 500 km per trip per person, so it gotta be reduced by 90% at least, and i don't think that's gonna happen soon as this is a completely different mode of transportation in China. Maybe works for a few dedicated ICL only such as Shanghai-Nanjing ICL.

Imagine everybody is allowed on the platform on your recent trip during the national day season. there is simply no system can make it work.
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Old October 7th, 2015, 12:49 AM   #10129
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it might be worthy of being considered if the average passenger mileage per trip in China shrinks to the Japanese/European numbers. currently the Chinese average is about 500 km per trip per person, so it gotta be reduced by 90% at least, and i don't think that's gonna happen soon as this is a completely different mode of transportation in China. Maybe works for a few dedicated ICL only such as Shanghai-Nanjing ICL.

Imagine everybody is allowed on the platform on your recent trip during the national day season. there is simply no system can make it work.
Compare the boarding procedure of Shenzhen or Guangzhou Subway. How do they manage the crowds of stowaways and terrorists?
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Old October 7th, 2015, 03:04 AM   #10130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamstergogogo View Post
it might be worthy of being considered if the average passenger mileage per trip in China shrinks to the Japanese/European numbers. currently the Chinese average is about 500 km per trip per person, so it gotta be reduced by 90% at least, and i don't think that's gonna happen soon as this is a completely different mode of transportation in China. Maybe works for a few dedicated ICL only such as Shanghai-Nanjing ICL.

Imagine everybody is allowed on the platform on your recent trip during the national day season. there is simply no system can make it work.
the average passenger mileage per trip in China is still increasing

Last edited by flankerjun; October 7th, 2015 at 03:12 AM.
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Old October 7th, 2015, 07:59 AM   #10131
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the average passenger mileage per trip in China is still increasing
And thatīs a problem.
What should be done to decrease it?
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Old October 7th, 2015, 11:13 AM   #10132
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I'm still convinced that if there were adequate transit options available, Chinese middle class would be more inclined to buy a house in the suburbs, in the end you can't get away from the fact that no matter the culture, people want as much living space as they can afford, that is the reason people put up with commuting 2-3 hours a day regardless if they live in London or Seoul.
No. The rich don't want to move far away. They won't get a garden in the city anyway. We see Beijing's 5th ring road is also highrises, but for the poor, not houses for the rich.
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Old October 7th, 2015, 11:17 AM   #10133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Which is why existing railway corridors ought to be used first.
How is the current state of progress of Futian Station?

Some CRH trains do use Shanghai station - as well as Shanghai West station.
The reason why the high-speed lines are dedicated new lines rather than upgrading existing tracks is to allow the poor to continue using the cheaper and slower trains (this is essential given the huge migrant population) and also for cargo. Hence, it would not make much sense to remove all the slow services altogether and run CRH into existing city centre stations.
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Old October 7th, 2015, 01:48 PM   #10134
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No. The rich don't want to move far away. They won't get a garden in the city anyway. We see Beijing's 5th ring road is also highrises, but for the poor, not houses for the rich.
Which means the rich have flats and schools in central city, and do not want to move to remote suburbs where there is land to build their factories and dormitories for common workers. Nor do the rich want their children to explode when their factories do.
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Old October 8th, 2015, 02:06 AM   #10135
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Nor do the rich want their children to explode when their factories do.
Pure gold that line is.

So they're saying that Beijing-Shanghai route is nearing operational capacity. I had to laugh a bit when I read online that some Chinese engineer was quoted that a second line would need to be built soon to cope with projected demand. However, I was wondering if it were possible to free up additional capacity on the line due to optimization and streamlining. Here are some of my ideas.

1. Uniform speed. To my knowledge, the D and G trains run at different operating speeds; 200km/h and 300km/h, respectively. Naturally this limits the number of services that the line can run. Raising the operating speeds of the D services to 300km/h, or eliminating D services altogether definitely can increase train dispatch frequencies.

2. Uniform Vehicles/Operation Specifications. China has now built for itself a reputation for designing its own railway vehicles. Politics and IP issues aside, there are no problems with using "digested" technology, but it is very likely that performance specifications between models are likely to differ, especially between multi-generational trainsets. Running CRH2 and CRH3C on the same line as CRH380As can become a major dispatching headache if the acceleration and deceleration profiles of the trains used are not uniform.

3. Improved Acceleration/Deceleration. As an extension of the previous point, particular emphasis should be placed on the development of more efficient braking and acceleration characteristics of future generation trainsets. This is particularly evident on the Tokaido Shinkansen with the development of the N700a, in which engineers traded top speed associated with high gear ratios in favor of faster acceleration with smaller gears. (500 series has a top design speed of 320; compared to N700 with a design speed of 300km/h, but can reach top speed in less than three minutes.)

4. Boarding procedures. According to observations, all incoming passengers wait at a central hall until the platform gates open. This essentially forces all boarding passengers into a chokepoint; it would be wiser if the gates simply remained open, with security checks conducted at the entrance to the main waiting lobby. This should allow for must faster and more efficient boarding, which can reduce station dwell and boarding times.
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Old October 8th, 2015, 07:17 AM   #10136
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D7622 leave Dandong Station,Yalu river and NK

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Old October 8th, 2015, 08:15 AM   #10137
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So they're saying that Beijing-Shanghai route is nearing operational capacity. I had to laugh a bit when I read online that some Chinese engineer was quoted that a second line would need to be built soon to cope with projected demand. However, I was wondering if it were possible to free up additional capacity on the line due to optimization and streamlining.
How about, use the construction of the second line to streamline the second line in ways which were missed in building the first line?
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Old October 9th, 2015, 11:33 AM   #10138
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How about, use the construction of the second line to streamline the second line in ways which were missed in building the first line?
Because constructing another line is ridiculously expensive.
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Old October 9th, 2015, 12:51 PM   #10139
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Because constructing another line is ridiculously expensive.
Same applies to building CRH in the first place.

Shanghai-Nanjing already has two parallel CRH lines. How could these be streamlined?
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Old October 9th, 2015, 06:01 PM   #10140
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it might be worthy of being considered if the average passenger mileage per trip in China shrinks to the Japanese/European numbers. currently the Chinese average is about 500 km per trip per person, so it gotta be reduced by 90% at least, and i don't think that's gonna happen soon as this is a completely different mode of transportation in China. Maybe works for a few dedicated ICL only such as Shanghai-Nanjing ICL.
Not at all. Comparing the average passenger mileage per trips in Japan or European countries to geographically many times bigger China is misleading.

I actually see the very high average passenger mileage per trip in China as a very very good thing because alternatives have much more environmental damage (car/bus and planes) and from a personal perspective significantly less comfortable.
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