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Old October 9th, 2015, 08:37 PM   #10141
Grunnen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Compare the boarding procedure of Shenzhen or Guangzhou Subway. How do they manage the crowds of stowaways and terrorists?
The subway generally has platform screen doors, very high frequency and (in general) people without too much luggage. That means trains can arrive and depart safely, people can board quickly and if the train is full, it is not a big problem for people to just wait for the next train.

(From Labour Day or Tomb Sweeping Day last year in Shenzhen I remember that at one point I was at Laojie station, and the lines on the platform of line 1 were so long, that only after the 3rd train came, I had proceeded enough to the front of the queue to be able to board.)

For long-distance trains, things are of course a bit different. In a country like Japan -also very densely populated in the urban areas- they use metro-like procedures even for HSR. But maybe there the crowds are managed by price - Shinkansen fares are quite expensive per kilometer!
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Old October 9th, 2015, 10:17 PM   #10142
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Not at all. Comparing the average passenger mileage per trips in Japan or European countries to geographically many times bigger China is misleading.
On the other hand, China is not much bigger than India. (The area is bigger, but much of it is western deserts. China Proper is about as big as India)
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I actually see the very high average passenger mileage per trip in China as a very very good thing because alternatives have much more environmental damage (car/bus and planes) and from a personal perspective significantly less comfortable.
I see it as a bad thing. It shows that the bulk of short distance travel is by the inferior alternatives (cars and buses).
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Old October 9th, 2015, 11:21 PM   #10143
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intercity buses are actually quite effecient thanks to the nice highway network. It can be smelly at times, but still fast. For short distance travels (<50 km), speed is on par with HSR when travel time to the station is factored in.

Long distance car travel makes sense only large group if people are traveling or they need to take lots of stuff. Family vaccation to a near by resort or 农家乐 tend to be the typical case
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Old October 10th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #10144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
On the other hand, China is not much bigger than India. (The area is bigger, but much of it is western deserts. China Proper is about as big as India)


I see it as a bad thing. It shows that the bulk of short distance travel is by the inferior alternatives (cars and buses).
I am going to repeat myself but anyway, Indian (same with Japan to a certain extend, too) numbers do not count. They include short distance rail which is used a lot by people for daily commute because they do not have a proper metro system in the cities. If you are going to do this type of comparison between India and China then you need to consider Chinese metro lines or exclude the short distance commutes in India.
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Old October 10th, 2015, 08:41 AM   #10145
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intercity buses are actually quite effecient thanks to the nice highway network. It can be smelly at times, but still fast. For short distance travels (<50 km), speed is on par with HSR when travel time to the station is factored in.
Precisely. China is short of train stations.
How did the speed of Tianjin Metro Line 9 (53 km) compare with buses on the same route?
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Old October 10th, 2015, 07:41 PM   #10146
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Buses are not inferior alternatives for short trips, environmentally or otherwise. Sure they can be miserable, but for a lover amount of money buses will be very nice.

They can't compete for longer distance, given a much lower speed limit, and unlike trains they can get stuck in traffic (in China that usually means they will be stuck in traffic).
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Old October 11th, 2015, 05:03 AM   #10147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Precisely. China is short of train stations.
How did the speed of Tianjin Metro Line 9 (53 km) compare with buses on the same route?
Separate issues, what you are talking about is commuter trains, not HSR. I see the high average passenger mile as a good thing too because it shows the system is so good that people are willing to travel on HSR instead of other means even on longer trips. You can't really compare China's numbers to other countries because no one else's network is on the same scale as China's.

Beijing-Shanghai capacity can be dramatically increased just by increase frequencies, if they can do any where close to Shinkansen level and using 16 car trains the problem could be resolved at least for the foreseeable future. Developing double deckers can probably buy even more time. The increase in passenger traffic will not go on forever, you don't want to build too much capacity just when traffic increase hits a plateau.

Shanghai-Nanjing corridor is a completely different animal, many business travel use it as a commuter line, I personally know a few people who travel to Shanghai from Nanjing at least three times a week. Due to the relatively short distance and the already high frequency potential of the existing line is limited. Good thing they have already started the Yangtze River HSR project and Nanjing-Shanghai will be part of it.
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Old October 11th, 2015, 09:46 AM   #10148
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Separate issues, what you are talking about is commuter trains, not HSR. I see the high average passenger mile as a good thing too because it shows the system is so good that people are willing to travel on HSR instead of other means even on longer trips.
It still shows shortage of commuter trains. Large number of short distance trips should keep the average trip distance down even though large numbers of long trips also exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
You can't really compare China's numbers to other countries because no one else's network is on the same scale as China's.
Several are far bigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
Beijing-Shanghai capacity can be dramatically increased just by increase frequencies, if they can do any where close to Shinkansen level and using 16 car trains the problem could be resolved at least for the foreseeable future.
Tokaido Shinkansen is full, and Japan is building parallel maglev. Since China is bigger, need for a parallel and faster line should be foreseeable now.
An important feature of Shinkansen is how it is integrated with commuter rail - despite gauge difference.
Out of 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen, 13 are old narrow gauge stations!
Of the remaining 4:
Shin-Osaka is a new station on Tokaido Main Line
Shin-Yokohama is a new station on existing Yokohama Line
leaving just 2 that were not narrow gauge stations on opening
and Gifu-Hashima is a terminus of a narrow gauge branch line built to serve Shinkansen station
leaving only Shin-Fuji with no commuter rail connection.
So, the Shinkansen stations are easy to reach by existing commuter rail. How about CRH stations?
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Old October 11th, 2015, 10:12 AM   #10149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
So, the Shinkansen stations are easy to reach by existing commuter rail. How about CRH stations?
CRH stations in the large cities are connected via local metro lines. Some examples - this is not exhaustive :

Beijing (South)
Shanghai (Hongqiao & main)
Shenzhen (North & main)
Guangzhou (South)
Zhengzhou East
Nanjing (South & main)
Tianjin (main)
Hangzhou (main)
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Old October 11th, 2015, 10:32 AM   #10150
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CRH stations in the large cities are connected via local metro lines. Some examples - this is not exhaustive :
5 out of 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen are connected via local metro lines, too:
Tokyo
Yokohama
Nagoya
Kyoto
Osaka.
BUT the point is, it is not just the Shinkansen stations in large cities having metro which are connected. The Shinkansen stations in midsized cities, which do not warrant dedicated metro, are also connected to commuter rail.
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Old October 11th, 2015, 02:04 PM   #10151
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Shin-Osaka isn't actually that well-connected. It is located on merely one metro line, and on the intersection with the Tokaido line, which can bring you to the true main station where all connectivity and commercial activities are.

Anyways...

There seem to be two models.

The first one I'd call the model "France" (or Japan), where the HSR network is as much as possible a dedicated network with high standards throughout. In the case of France it even means that the HSR between the two largest cities, Paris and Marseille, passes by the third-largest city of Lyon, but generally halts there in a dedicated HSR station far outside of the city proper.

The other model is the model "Germany", where dedicated HSR infrastructure is mixed with traditional railways and where the high speed trains are generally directed through all of the traditional central stations, near the city centre, of the cities that the railway passes.

(These models perfectly reflect those countries: France with its history of centralisation, enlightenment and grand works, and Germany with its history of countless small duchies dabbling at the square centimeter. But that's another story.)

One might add the model "Switzerland". Here, the starting point of all thinking is the connection between the commuter rail and long-distance rail in "timetable cadence nodes" and the amount of infrastructure investment is exactly planned in such way that the long-distance trains reach these nodes just in time.

And AFAIK the actual railway modal share nowadays is Switzerland > France > Germany.
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Old October 11th, 2015, 03:13 PM   #10152
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Shin-Osaka isn't actually that well-connected. It is located on merely one metro line, and on the intersection with the Tokaido line, which can bring you to the true main station where all connectivity and commercial activities are.
Precisely. It was built, like many CRH stations, on then sparsely settled outskirts of Osaka because it was too hard to get Shinkansen to central city - BUT it was built right on a section of the existing Tokaido railway AND was built with an interchange station on the commuter railway.
Can you travel between Shanghai Station and Hongqiao Station on an older railway line?
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Old October 11th, 2015, 03:45 PM   #10153
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wow, this project made by japan, but now China beat japan to build a new high speed rail network in Indonesia, just a decade, what an improvement!
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Old October 11th, 2015, 04:40 PM   #10154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
5 out of 17 stations of Tokaido Shinkansen are connected via local metro lines, too:
Tokyo
Yokohama
Nagoya
Kyoto
Osaka.
BUT the point is, it is not just the Shinkansen stations in large cities having metro which are connected. The Shinkansen stations in midsized cities, which do not warrant dedicated metro, are also connected to commuter rail.
A bit silly to compare rail connectivity between China and Japan when passengers use high-speed rail for vastly different reasons between these 2 countries.

The fact is China's high-speed rail stations, many of which are not in the city centre, are adequately connected to local public transport systems.
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Old October 12th, 2015, 01:25 AM   #10155
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These forums are funny. People were criticizing China building too much of high speed rail, now, it is too little... no winning
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Old October 12th, 2015, 07:53 AM   #10156
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Shanghai-Nanjing corridor is a completely different animal, many business travel use it as a commuter line, I personally know a few people who travel to Shanghai from Nanjing at least three times a week. Due to the relatively short distance and the already high frequency potential of the existing line is limited.
"The" existing line? Which one of the three?
(
  1. old slow speed railway
  2. Shanghai-Nanjing high speed railway
  3. Shanghai-Nanjing section of Shanghai-Beijing high speed railway
)
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Old October 12th, 2015, 12:09 PM   #10157
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These forums are funny. People were criticizing China building too much of high speed rail, now, it is too little... no winning
I understand where you are coming from ,,Previously the western media launched attacks on the level of infrastrucure spending in China as excessive and unneccessary taking particular aim at the HSR system. It created a perception outside the country that this was the reality on the ground.

AS time has passed and the HSR system has proven its worth perceptions changed due to the increasing ridership and market demand etc. In fact the success of the system is fuelling demand for such systems in foreign markets like Thailand and Indonesia to name but two,

To suggest that the Chinese would be biulding a HSR line in the USA even five years ago would have raised eyebrows but the reality is China has the technology, the finance and the experience to deliver HSR.

Facts speak louder than words .
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Old October 12th, 2015, 02:07 PM   #10158
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some pictures of Beijing-Shenyang HSL,Progress is very fast.



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Old October 12th, 2015, 05:34 PM   #10159
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some pictures of Beijing-Shenyang HSL,Progress is very fast.

Currently, the fastest G trains take 4 hours. So what will be the expected travel time once this line is completed?
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Old October 12th, 2015, 07:47 PM   #10160
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This is another line that will kill off a lot of flights. Currently on average there about 10-11 flights between Beijing and Shenyang. That number will prob be reduced to around 3, as was the case for Beijing Zhengzhou when the HSR between the two cities opened. It's long overdue though, I remember that it was initially scheduled for completion in 2016.
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