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Old December 28th, 2009, 11:51 PM   #1001
makita09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Well, if you cannot even read, or read well enough to know what I wrote and what I did not write, then I don't see a point in responding to your ravings. Please, take them elsewhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74
There IS such a thing as limits to available technology....technology as existing in Europe does not seem to allow safe and economic operation of trains at the speed of 350km/h.

You don't see any point in responding to my ravings because you cannot justify yourself. Don't make claims and then feign misrepresentation when rebutted.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 12:04 AM   #1002
chornedsnorkack
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Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
CRH Guangzhou-Changsha Timetable Version 2009.12.28


 车次, 始发站, 终点站, 车辆类型, 发站, 发时,  到站, 到时, 停站, 历时, 硬座, 软座, 硬卧中, 软卧下
G1022 广州北  武汉 高速动车 广州北 07:00 长沙南 09:15 4 02:15 312 499 - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
G6004 广州北 长沙南 高速动车 广州北 17:00 长沙南 19:43 8 02:43 312 499 - -
Quote:
Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
G1058 广州北  武汉 高速动车 广州北 19:20 长沙南 21:28 3 02:08 312 499 - -
G6008 广州北 长沙南 高速动车 广州北 19:50 长沙南 22:26 7 02:36 312 499 - -
G6010 广州北 长沙南 高速动车 广州北 20:35 长沙南 22:57 5 02:22 312 499 - -



So, the ticket price(Guangzhou-Changsha) is 312RMB(second class) and 499RMB(first class), travel time is about 2 hours 20 minutes.
I observe that:
All the trains Guangzhou-Changsha, with different trip times (2:08 to 2:43) cost exact same price.

If you need to spend a day in Guangzhou, you can leave as late as 20:35 and arrive in Changsha at 22:57. But the first time to arrive in Changsha in the morning is 9:15, so even if you would get up early, you still arrive late in the morning in Changsha. I suppose most jobs in Changsha begin before 10 o´clock in the morning?

If you have a trip Guangzhou-Changsha and then Changsha-Wuhan, is the price combined as much as the ticket price Guangzhou-Wuhan?
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Old December 29th, 2009, 12:38 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I observe that:
All the trains Guangzhou-Changsha, with different trip times (2:08 to 2:43) cost exact same price.

If you need to spend a day in Guangzhou, you can leave as late as 20:35 and arrive in Changsha at 22:57. But the first time to arrive in Changsha in the morning is 9:15, so even if you would get up early, you still arrive late in the morning in Changsha. I suppose most jobs in Changsha begin before 10 o´clock in the morning?

If you have a trip Guangzhou-Changsha and then Changsha-Wuhan, is the price combined as much as the ticket price Guangzhou-Wuhan?
It's same price. the ticket price is calculate by traveling length. But, if take a 250km/h line train, the ticket price halve. take the old line, ticket price cheaper.

The CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou is 350km/h, CRH Wuhan-Hefei is 250km/h.

There is an old railway between Guangzhou and Changsha, the speed under 200km/h(maybe 120km/h), so, many passenger could choose have a sleep in the slow train at last night and get to Changsha in next day morning.
image hosted on flickr




The train on old railway system.

sleeper
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr



I think the ticket of CRH high-speed is too expensive, especially the 350km/h line. The sleeper ticket of old railway train is more economy.

Last edited by HunanChina; December 29th, 2009 at 01:08 AM.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 12:46 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
You don't see any point in responding to my ravings because you cannot justify yourself. Don't make claims and then feign misrepresentation when rebutted.
Normally, you'd have to pay me a fee to get me to teach you how to read and reason logically. But since I am a nice guy, will do it for you this time, but it will be the only time.

First of all, "as existing in Europe": it is a fact that no regular commercial service in Europe currently sustains the speed of 350km/h. It may be for immature development of the signaling system ETCS-2, but it may also due to other factors. Others may be saying that it will also not be possible in some future point in time, but I am certainly not.

Second, the sentence you quoted me was written in the context of my response to Foxmulder's crude and inarticulate post about the apparently limitless technological advances. There are, as anyone paying any attention in the forum would know, people who argue there are some intrinsic limitations to the kind of technologies used in today's trains, to the effect that trains built using them will never safely and economically run at the speed of 350km/h or above. I was simply acknowledging that there are no a priori grounds to rule such arguments out of court, and that it's infantile to respond to such arguments by comparing them, as Foxmulder (and you) did, to hypothetical doubts about building a skyscraper of 600meter height. That is why I said "it seems", acknowledging the very intelligibility of doubt, while distancing myself from the specific claims these doubters were making.

Of course if you had read my other posts at all, you'd know I am inclined to _disagree_ with them. But being a reader as observant and sensitive as you are, you'd never notice it in a million years.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 02:25 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Normally, you'd have to pay me a fee to get me to teach you how to read and reason logically.
Don't worry, I don't need your version of logic. If you know it on paper then practice it.

Quote:
First of all, "as existing in Europe": it is a fact that no regular commercial service in Europe currently sustains the speed of 350km/h. It may be for immature development of the signaling system ETCS-2, but it may also due to other factors.
Thanks for coming down to the discussion. Yes, you have stated a fact. It is likely down to the signalling system. You are stating a hypothetical in that it may be down to other factors. What other factors? And forgive me but you give the impression you feel such (unstated) issues as unsurmountable, even in the short term, without providing a reason.

Quote:
Others may be saying that it will also not be possible in some future point in time, but I am certainly not.
And they haven't given any reasons either.

Quote:
Second, the sentence you quoted me was written in the context of my response to Foxmulder's crude and inarticulate post about the apparently limitless technological advances. There are, as anyone paying any attention in the forum would know, people who argue there are some intrinsic limitations to the kind of technologies used in today's trains, to the effect that trains built using them will never safely and economically run at the speed of 350km/h or above. I was simply acknowledging that there are no a priori grounds to rule such arguments out of court,
Anyone who has been about long enough knows that every time this argument is made about some arbitrary barrier it is always eventually broken. Inductive reasoning. A closer look at how each of those barriers were broken it is seen how the issue actually had nothing to do with the arbitrary barrier but some element(s) to do with individual engineering issues and some basic physics. For example, we can't make steel stronger than x, it is a fundenmental limitation of steel. Until of course someone makes a stronger one by adding some tin.


Quote:
and that it's infantile to respond to such arguments by comparing them, as Foxmulder (and you) did, to hypothetical doubts about building a skyscraper of 600meter height.
apart from they are not infantile comparisons, they actually occured, and from some apparently intelligent people throughout the decades, therefore they are totally relevant to this cnversation.

Quote:
That is why I said "it seems", acknowledging the very intelligibility of doubt, while distancing myself from the specific claims these doubters were making.
There are loads of doubters. Its nearly all ignorance wrapped up in hyperbole, and, pertinent to this thread, China bashing.

What you did was take the possibility as being significantly valid, and whilst there is a possibility that the sun won't come up tomorrow, if I said as such and Foxmulder said "Don't be silly, it always came up before!" would you respond to him the same?


Quote:
But since I am a nice guy....
Quote:
But being a reader as observant and sensitive as you are, you'd never notice it in a million years.
hmmmm.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 03:02 AM   #1006
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post

We know that the technology of CHR3 used in the new line is largely based on German technology, and that technology as existing in Europe does not seem to allow safe and economic operation of trains at the speed of 350km/h.
You are WRONG!

Technology exists, infrastructure and political will does not.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 03:07 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
The station is uncompleted, so, just few of photos I can search.
Thanks anyway. Great updates...
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Old December 29th, 2009, 03:25 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
You are WRONG!

Technology exists, infrastructure and political will does not.
Well, some of the political will has to do with the will to _develop_ technology to begin with.

But I am not going to engage myself in another debate with people who aren't able to make the most basic of distinctions and to read and understand anything more than crude metaphors and slogans and to write anything other than blanket claims and accusations. Have fun with Maketa and such, they play your pubertal game.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 03:29 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Don't worry, I don't need your version of logic. If you know it on paper then practice it.



Thanks for coming down to the discussion. Yes, you have stated a fact. It is likely down to the signalling system. You are stating a hypothetical in that it may be down to other factors. What other factors? And forgive me but you give the impression you feel such (unstated) issues as unsurmountable, even in the short term, without providing a reason.



And they haven't given any reasons either.



Anyone who has been about long enough knows that every time this argument is made about some arbitrary barrier it is always eventually broken. Inductive reasoning. A closer look at how each of those barriers were broken it is seen how the issue actually had nothing to do with the arbitrary barrier but some element(s) to do with individual engineering issues and some basic physics. For example, we can't make steel stronger than x, it is a fundenmental limitation of steel. Until of course someone makes a stronger one by adding some tin.




apart from they are not infantile comparisons, they actually occured, and from some apparently intelligent people throughout the decades, therefore they are totally relevant to this cnversation.



There are loads of doubters. Its nearly all ignorance wrapped up in hyperbole, and, pertinent to this thread, China bashing.

What you did was take the possibility as being significantly valid, and whilst there is a possibility that the sun won't come up tomorrow, if I said as such and Foxmulder said "Don't be silly, it always came up before!" would you respond to him the same?






hmmmm.
Suffice it to say I have wasted enough of my time. Keep enjoying yourself with that torrent vapidity sprinkled over with mangled logic.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 03:55 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
It's same price. the ticket price is calculate by traveling length. But, if take a 250km/h line train, the ticket price halve. take the old line, ticket price cheaper.

The CRH Wuhan-Guangzhou is 350km/h, CRH Wuhan-Hefei is 250km/h.

There is an old railway between Guangzhou and Changsha, the speed under 200km/h(maybe 120km/h), so, many passenger could choose have a sleep in the slow train at last night and get to Changsha in next day morning.
image hosted on flickr



The train on old railway system.

sleeper
image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr



I think the ticket of CRH high-speed is too expensive, especially the 350km/h line. The sleeper ticket of old railway train is more economy.

I have a question: the second of the two pictures is presumably of a "soft-sleeper" cabin, does each such cabin contain only _two_ beds? And it is still about 30Yuan cheaper than the 2-hour express train? The "Schlafwagen" in Germany can be more expensive than an express train.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 04:14 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Well, some of the political will has to do with the will to _develop_ technology to begin with.

But I am not going to engage myself in another debate with people who aren't able to make the most basic of distinctions and to read and understand anything more than crude metaphors and slogans and to write anything other than blanket claims and accusations. Have fun with Maketa and such, they play your pubertal game.
good.

we'll wave to you from 350km/h trains..
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Old December 29th, 2009, 08:03 AM   #1012
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Thanks for the amazing updates and pictures. I also wanted to say that it's interesting to see that the MOR has adopted the Japanese Yellow Doctor (p.s notice how they sacraficed a CRH5 for the purpose of checking the line instead of using a CRH2 or 3 lol)
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Old December 29th, 2009, 09:40 AM   #1013
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Old December 29th, 2009, 09:58 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I have a question: the second of the two pictures is presumably of a "soft-sleeper" cabin, does each such cabin contain only _two_ beds? And it is still about 30Yuan cheaper than the 2-hour express train? The "Schlafwagen" in Germany can be more expensive than an express train.

The definitions are:

"Hard sleeper" - actually it is upholstered. No door between aisle and compartment, and 6 beds in a compartment, 3 on each side. The lower beds are most expensive and upper beds are cheapest.

"Soft sleeper" - compartments have doors, and 4 beds in compartment, 2 on each side. Again upper beds are cheaper.

"Deluxe soft sleeper" - only 2 beds in compartment. But those are lower and upper bed, not 2 beds both lower, On the side opposite of the beds there are chairs or something. Very few trains have these.

But I think that Beijing-Hong Kong trains do have deluxe soft sleeper. Do those stop in Changsha?
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Old December 29th, 2009, 10:20 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
Well, some of the political will has to do with the will to _develop_ technology to begin with.

But I am not going to engage myself in another debate with people who aren't able to make the most basic of distinctions and to read and understand anything more than crude metaphors and slogans and to write anything other than blanket claims and accusations. Have fun with Maketa and such, they play your pubertal game.
You have distinguished yourself as an uninformed patronising fool. Take it from someone who has followed intently rail technology for decades that you are quite frankly making it all up in your head. You may believe you are being rational, you aren't. You may not wish to engage with me, but if you fill this thread with any more unjustified nonsense I will rebutt it for all to see.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 11:14 AM   #1016
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Which side of Wuhan station is this located at? The scene is insane!
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Old December 29th, 2009, 12:02 PM   #1017
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One of the reasons the CHR3 runs faster is because they put 16 cars together to achieve more power. They need to do that because there are a lot more people to transport than in Europe.
In Europe two ICE3 units, either in Germany or Spain, are often paired together into 16 cars. As is done with TGVs. It does nothing to increase the top speed - the majority of friction is rolling and wind resistance, of which the wind resistance from the front is only a very small proportion. Power to weight ratio remains the same, and so does power to friction ratio within 1 or 2%.

The reason they run faster is because they are later more advanced models than the German ones, of which the Spanich ones are also an evolution.

Last edited by makita09; December 29th, 2009 at 12:15 PM.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 03:49 PM   #1018
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Originally Posted by HunanChina View Post
OMG! Your logic is so funny.
Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev(450km/h+) will start to construct soon.
Mistake: It seems that this message is false. Or at least, this will come true in a very long period.

The cost of the Maglev system is too expensive to China because China haven't obtained the necessary technology(Siemens obtains this technology). As this result, Chinese-Gov do not like really Maglev.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 04:02 PM   #1019
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Originally Posted by octopusop View Post
China is shameless in domestic propagating.
All of CRH tek were buying from Japan and German (Italy kicked off), MoR claimed that wholly autonomation intellectual property.

Did you see a dirty govt. before?


Chinese govt dare to lose face in dirty shame.
As this result, "CRH"(China Railway High-speed) had ever been called as "Chi Ru Hao"(the Chinese prenunciation of "Shame Express").

CRH2A is 4M4T verision of Japaness Shinkansen E2-1000.
CRH2A has top operating speed of 250km/h and a speed label painted as 200km/h.

CRH3 is Velaro-CN, customized from Velaro platform.
CRH3 has top operating speed of 330~350km/h and a speed label painted as 300km/h.

The earlier CRH orders are grouped in to "pack"s. Each pack contains 20 set of CRH.
* The 1st train set in a pack is shipped from the original country.
* And then 2 sets shipped in as components, then assembled in China.
* The remained 17 sets are produced in China with the tech-support from the original country.

As I know, the MoR of China ordered 3 packs of CRH2A and 3 packs of CRH3.

Last edited by typhoon_wolf; December 29th, 2009 at 04:54 PM. Reason: Wrong message.
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Old December 29th, 2009, 04:15 PM   #1020
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Tianxingzhou Road Rail Bridge on Yangtze River 天兴洲长江大桥(铁路公路两用桥)

4 railway lines and CRH train can cross the Bridge with 350km/h.
... Not exactly. As I know, this bridge can just take 250km/h of CRHs in daily running.
TianXingZhou bridge is one speed-limited area of BeiJing-WuHan high-speed railway.
Every CRH will stop at WuHan station or pass WuHan station at a low speed, 250km/h is enough.
But 250km/h is enough to make this bridge as "super bridge".
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