daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 20th, 2015, 12:41 PM   #10221
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,977
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You need to consider the passenger flow and whether the largest cities have sufficient redundancy. Those city pairs should get the first priority in any capacity increase. It is simple economics.

With that, it is clear Beijing to Shanghai can sustain a second, different rail line.
I think you responded to the wrong post, because you didn't answer his question at all
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 20th, 2015, 03:59 PM   #10222
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
Great explanation....still kinda confused as to why there is a new train with no designation. Also which is the CRH0207 you're talking about? I see the brown train and the CRH5 in the picture.
I mean the other 350km/h train

__________________

FM 2258, Tk.Alv-87, ARHANGELstGAVRIIL liked this post
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2015, 05:54 PM   #10223
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I gave one example already in my post. Would Beijing - Shanghai take less priority than a redundancy for small city pairs such as Jinan - Xuzhou? To frame the discussion back to what we have been discussing, it is a parallel line for Beijing - Shanghai to cater for growth.
And my point is that there may be a choice between capacity and redundancy. Which of them is more important?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 02:40 PM   #10224
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And my point is that there may be a choice between capacity and redundancy. Which of them is more important?
You need both. Cannot look in isolation. The best is to get the two in one solution.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 03:28 PM   #10225
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You need both. Cannot look in isolation. The best is to get the two in one solution.
You still need to choose.
Four or more tracks on the same corridor are the best solution for capacity. It also has most efficient redundancy for single track failure, like a single stalled or slow moving train - because of frequent interconnections, the other trains can easily pass around on the neighbouring tracks, and still serve all the same stations (if unusual platforms) almost on schedule.

However, fires, spills and explosions can affect multiple tracks on the same line. The viaduct from Shimbashi to Tokyo station carries 8 (sic!) tracks - 6 (six) narrow gauge and 2 Shinkansen ones... and when Yurakucho station caught fire, this shut all eight tracks.

By comparison, parallel lines distant from each other cannot be obstructed by a common cause... except when it is at points where the lines meet. On the other hand, if one line is shut or just jammed, going around via the other line is a huge detour. If Beijing-Shanghai line is shut down between Jinan-Xuzhou, will the trains en route from Jinan to Xuzhou reverse to Beijing, reach Shanghai via Lianyungang and then travel Shanghai-Xuzhou via Nanjing?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 03:55 PM   #10226
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You still need to choose.
Four or more tracks on the same corridor are the best solution for capacity. It also has most efficient redundancy for single track failure, like a single stalled or slow moving train - because of frequent interconnections, the other trains can easily pass around on the neighbouring tracks, and still serve all the same stations (if unusual platforms) almost on schedule.

However, fires, spills and explosions can affect multiple tracks on the same line. The viaduct from Shimbashi to Tokyo station carries 8 (sic!) tracks - 6 (six) narrow gauge and 2 Shinkansen ones... and when Yurakucho station caught fire, this shut all eight tracks.

By comparison, parallel lines distant from each other cannot be obstructed by a common cause... except when it is at points where the lines meet. On the other hand, if one line is shut or just jammed, going around via the other line is a huge detour. If Beijing-Shanghai line is shut down between Jinan-Xuzhou, will the trains en route from Jinan to Xuzhou reverse to Beijing, reach Shanghai via Lianyungang and then travel Shanghai-Xuzhou via Nanjing?
The best redundancy is entirely separate infrastructure. If a fire, spill, or derailment occurs, all 4 tracks that you mention could be unusable. This redundancy would be useless.

Beijing and Shanghai are sufficiently large cities for an entirely separate line that originates and ends at different stations, offering enhanced connectivity for passengers from both cities.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 04:13 PM   #10227
nossiano
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Somewhere in Italy
Posts: 287
Likes (Received): 114

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
I mean the other 350km/h train

Can someone tell me the names of these two new trains, please?
nossiano no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 06:02 PM   #10228
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,977
Likes (Received): 836

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The best redundancy is entirely separate infrastructure. If a fire, spill, or derailment occurs, all 4 tracks that you mention could be unusable. This redundancy would be useless.

Beijing and Shanghai are sufficiently large cities for an entirely separate line that originates and ends at different stations, offering enhanced connectivity for passengers from both cities.
You're not saying anything he isn't already saying himself. You never answer his questions, however: "On the other hand, if one line is shut or just jammed, going around via the other line is a huge detour. If Beijing-Shanghai line is shut down between Jinan-Xuzhou, will the trains en route from Jinan to Xuzhou reverse to Beijing, reach Shanghai via Lianyungang and then travel Shanghai-Xuzhou via Nanjing?"
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 06:38 PM   #10229
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

The best is indeed to have an entirely different route because of the side benefit that it allows to serve different intermediate destinations and thus reach an even larger potential market.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 06:57 PM   #10230
LaoTze
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 955
Likes (Received): 7443

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I see the new train says CRH-0503 but what type is it? I love that CRH is introducing new colors to their trains other than blue. I'm also glad they're staying with the overall white color scheme.
It's a new train prototype under testing. After operating imported models for the past few years, China now wants to design new high-speed train sets with common sub-systems based on their own standard.
__________________

FM 2258 liked this post
LaoTze no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 07:33 PM   #10231
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Beijing and Shanghai are sufficiently large cities for an entirely separate line that originates and ends at different stations, offering enhanced connectivity for passengers from both cities.
Beijing and Shanghai, and several others, are also sufficiently large cities for several HSR stations on the same line.
Compare:
Taibei has Banqiao station, 7,2 km from Taibei, and all high speed trains, even expresses, stop in both.
Tokyo has Shinagawa and Ueno stations
Shinagawa, 6,8 km from Tokyo, is a stop of all expresses
Ueno, 3,6 km from Tokyo, is a stop for a lot of trains.

How is the current state of progress of Futian Station? When shall Beijing-Shenzhen trains start serving both Shenzhen North and Futian station on each trip?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 07:46 PM   #10232
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Beijing and Shanghai, and several others, are also sufficiently large cities for several HSR stations on the same line.
Compare:
Taibei has Banqiao station, 7,2 km from Taibei, and all high speed trains, even expresses, stop in both.
Tokyo has Shinagawa and Ueno stations
Shinagawa, 6,8 km from Tokyo, is a stop of all expresses
Ueno, 3,6 km from Tokyo, is a stop for a lot of trains.

How is the current state of progress of Futian Station? When shall Beijing-Shenzhen trains start serving both Shenzhen North and Futian station on each trip?
As I have said before, Japan's incomes means train use and train line planning serve completely different purposes from China, so it is not a model for comparison.

I don't see how multiple stops in the same city on the same line would make connectivity better if anywhere along that single line goes down. It means everyone gets stranded whereas those that take a different line from a different station in the same city can move on. That is what redundancy is supposed to achieve.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 07:56 PM   #10233
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
As I have said before, Japan's incomes means train use and train line planning serve completely different purposes from China,
Tokaido Shinkansen was opened in 1964, and planned before 1964, when Japanīs incomes were something else than what they are in 2015.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I don't see how multiple stops in the same city on the same line would make connectivity better if anywhere along that single line goes down.
Mainly, it makes connectivity better at normal times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
It means everyone gets stranded whereas those that take a different line from a different station in the same city can move on. That is what redundancy is supposed to achieve.
Actually these multiple stops meant redundancy exactly during the line failure through Yurakucho station fire! When the line went down, Tokaido Shinkansen did NOT close: the trains terminated and turned round at Shinagawa Station.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 08:07 PM   #10234
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Tokaido Shinkansen was opened in 1964, and planned before 1964, when Japanīs incomes were something else than what they are in 2015.

Mainly, it makes connectivity better at normal times.

Actually these multiple stops meant redundancy exactly during the line failure through Yurakucho station fire! When the line went down, Tokaido Shinkansen did NOT close: the trains terminated and turned round at Shinagawa Station.
You were talking about Ueno being a stop for a lot of trains. The Tokaido Shinkansen doesn't stop there. You were confusing commuter services with high-speed trains.

I wouldn't expect ending my journey at Cangzhou West, the next stop on the line 200 km south of Beijing, is better when Beijing South goes down compared to riding an alternative high-speed line that can take me to another inner city Beijing train station.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 08:17 PM   #10235
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,975
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You were talking about Ueno being a stop for a lot of trains. The Tokaido Shinkansen doesn't stop there.
No, but Tohoku Shinkansen does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You were confusing commuter services with high-speed trains.
Kodama trains, inter alia, are precisely both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I wouldn't expect ending my journey at Cangzhou West, the next stop on the line 200 km south of Beijing, is better when Beijing South goes down
Cangzhou West is not the stop next to Beijing South. Langfang is, and it is 59 km south of Beijing South, not 200.
And Iīm arguing that this 59 is also too much - Beijing, like Tokyo, Taibei and Shenzhen, needs more high speed stations than just Beijing South.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
compared to riding an alternative high-speed line that can take me to another inner city Beijing train station.
How about, diverting at Tianjin West to Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway, and riding that line and then via Zhuozhou to Beijing West?
How is the current progress of Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2015, 08:24 PM   #10236
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,926
Likes (Received): 18188

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And Iīm arguing that this 59 is also too much - Beijing, like Tokyo, Taibei and Shenzhen, needs more high speed stations than just Beijing South.

How about, diverting at Tianjin West to Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway, and riding that line and then via Zhuozhou to Beijing West?
How is the current progress of Tianjin-Baoding High Speed Railway?
The point is China's HSR stations are far apart. This makes any issues on the line very problematic and will ripple through the entire line with significant inconvenience. Adding tracks would not improve the redundancy in case a major accident renders all the tracks useless. We should not be adding journey time by inserting many stations in between for an already long line hoping to make a bad redundancy case more relevant. A second separate line can recycle other lines rather than building everything new.

The CRH network is not meant to be an express commuter rail alternative. This is especially true for Beijing - Shanghai.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2015, 05:10 AM   #10237
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

A video on these new train sets by tjrgx


China's New Standardized 350kph Train-Set Promo--中车350kph标准动车组


__________________
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2015, 01:16 PM   #10238
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153

Ah yes, the bucolic Chinese countryside...

__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2015, 08:38 PM   #10239
hamstergogogo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 28
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Ah yes, the bucolic Chinese countryside...

thanks for nitpicking with your toxic eyes. regarding that picture, it could be a render of European countryside, after all it's a potential market.
__________________

particlez, hmmwv liked this post
hamstergogogo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2015, 10:43 PM   #10240
luhai
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 647
Likes (Received): 423

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
Ah yes, the bucolic Chinese countryside...

You mean like these ones?


Quote:
Originally Posted by voyager221 View Post
Branch lines in northeast of china and soon to open Harbin-Qiqihar HSR
By 做奥迪的王大师








__________________

FM 2258, 3737, Frank J. Sprague, big-dog liked this post
luhai no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium