daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:41 AM   #10321
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Looking at the average incomes, that is not the case - not for everyday use. They may be able to afford an occasional weekend trip, but a peasant or migrant cannot afford routine, regular use. These people move to the cities and are provided housing already because their wages are so low, so I doubt they even consider using CRH unless in the worst case scenario they cannot secure the slow train or bus trickets for their annual CNY hometown.
You are mentioning just "everyday" and "annual" travel. There is a huge difference between 1 and 240 return trips per year.
People who travel by CRH 3 times per year or 30 times per year are a huge number of trips taken together.
As are people who could secure slow train or bus tickets no problem, but the return travel time would eat away too much of the weekend or workday they can spare for going home or a business trip. What is "routine" and "regular" for you? Would using CRH rather than slow train or not travelling once a year each Tomb Sweeping Day be "regular"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The other aspect which I have raised in a previous discussion of this same topic in this same thread is why would people want to spend a fortune commuting on CRH when average urban rents are low? Would you half of your rent on public transport? What kind of rental savings can you realistically achieve by moving far with CRH transport costs?
Why would people want to spend a fortune going home for New Year? What kind of rental savings do the migrants achieve by having a hometown, rather than moving to city once in life and never going back?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I don't see the purpose of chopping the lines for a myopic analysis. Are you suggesting people commute between Fukuoka and Tokyo on a daily basis?
No. Iīm suggesting they never have, and particularly did not do so back in 1975.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Not really a big issue since Hongqiao is directly connected to 2 subway lines that will get you into town in about 30-40 minutes - a reasonable amount of time although not ideal.
Yes, but people who choose to fly in the first place can use these same subway lines.
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:47 AM   #10322
skyridgeline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,524
Likes (Received): 1217

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaBRICS View Post
TGV is also too expensive for daily use for middle class in France.
Even more expensive for middle class in Germany or Spain.
Beijing-Tianjin costs about US $10. I think the toll would cost ~ US $5 - $10 on the road .
skyridgeline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:49 AM   #10323
skyridgeline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,524
Likes (Received): 1217

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinaBRICS View Post
TGV is also too expensive for daily use for middle class in France.
Even more expensive for middle class in Germany or Spain.
... Duplicate
skyridgeline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 08:36 AM   #10324
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18211

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
Trucks and buses combined for a total of ~10%?

Why daily? Maybe once a week? There are a lot of people living in the areas along the route.
For migrants, they get housing by their employer and make very low wages so they won't likely splurge on the weekend with a CRH outing when their families back in the rural areas need the money for useful things.

For the middle class, it makes little sense to rent a place in the city for the work week only and then commute back for the weekend. While rents are cheap by international standards, they eat into a significant portion of their income and CRH just eats away even more of whatever little disposable income they have left.

Hence, out-of-town commutes are not common in Chinese cities. You rent in town and stay in town and go home for major festivals such as CNY. Instead, the middle class would be occasional travelers who take the CRH for an outing, or for a longer vacation during a golden week holiday. Hence, providing CRH commuter service isn't the smartest thing to do economically at this point.

Keep in mind while the population centres along the major lines, such as Beijing-Guangzhou, are huge, intercity commuter travel is still uncommon given the cost concerns. It is actually more economical to rent in town than to commute by CRH. The commuting cost can easily equate to the rental itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You are mentioning just "everyday" and "annual" travel. There is a huge difference between 1 and 240 return trips per year.
People who travel by CRH 3 times per year or 30 times per year are a huge number of trips taken together.
As are people who could secure slow train or bus tickets no problem, but the return travel time would eat away too much of the weekend or workday they can spare for going home or a business trip. What is "routine" and "regular" for you? Would using CRH rather than slow train or not travelling once a year each Tomb Sweeping Day be "regular"?
The average private sector urban income in Beijing is 36k RMB, or about 3k RMB a month. A roundtrip C train ticket to Tianjin costs 110 RMB. I probably would balk to spend 4% of my monthly gross salary for one outing to a nearby city. That's why even the middle class would be occasional travelers, and not CRH commuters. Looking at these figures, I would interpret occasional to be not even once a month.

Tomb-sweeping day is not a week-long "golden week" holiday, so it is unlikely most of the urban middle class can head back to their hometowns for the ritual ceremonies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Why would people want to spend a fortune going home for New Year? What kind of rental savings do the migrants achieve by having a hometown, rather than moving to city once in life and never going back?
The migrants don't have much of a choice for CNY. Not only is it a traditional family get-together festival, factories where these migrants work shut down for much of the month around CNY, so they have no work to do anyway. Hence, this mass migration takes place. But then, the slow trains are cheap so spending a little to get home isn't a big deal for them, while the middle class can fight for a CRH ticket and maybe even fly abroad for the golden week.

The tradition is migrants head home once a year around CNY. This is not a cost concern, but a cultural one. That being said, it is not a head home at any cost solution, but rather a slow trip back using economic (non-CRH) means.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 02:57 PM   #10325
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post


The operator would have needed a state bailout or gone through bankruptcy paying all the interest on the debt incurred to build extravagant projects that are not used by the passengers they were built for. You plan for 2050 by building new lines but you don't build and commission all the stations 35 years before they are realistically viable.

In these days of austerity, white elephants like your "long-term planning" fantasies are no longer encouraged. China has enough of these white elephants on display already.

I still see a lot of hand-waving "economics" and no realistic analysis of incomes, rents, and train ticket prices - the drivers of passenger use, and why CRH was designed and operates in this way today.
You're mixing up developed economies (like US or UK) with an economy that is in the middle of urbanization. If your model was applied to China since 1979 then China wouldn't be what it is today but perhaps something more comparable to Bangladesh i.e. without any infrastructure, housing or transport system because of insufficient 'income levels'. This is the problem with such view. It's too limited and ignoring too many core factors to be sensible.

Amazingly some 'experts' and 'analysts' were calling CRH just that, white elephant, a few years back. They were proven wrong by now. Your rationalization about incomes and commuting is clearly wrong too. Entire China's development was based on long-term planning. Shenzhen is a result of that too. Short-termism is not the way to go if you want a country to get somewhere.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 03:07 PM   #10326
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18211

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
You're mixing up developed economies (like US or UK) with an economy that is in the middle of urbanization. If your model was applied to China since 1979 then China wouldn't be what it is today but perhaps something more comparable to Bangladesh i.e. without any infrastructure, housing or transport system because of insufficient 'income levels'. This is the problem with such view. It's too limited and ignoring too many core factors to be sensible.

Amazingly some 'experts' and 'analysts' were calling CRH just that, white elephant, a few years back. They were proven wrong by now. Your rationalization about incomes and commuting is clearly wrong too. Entire China's development was based on long-term planning. Shenzhen is a result of that too. Short-termism is not the way to go if you want a country to get somewhere.
The infrastructure is there for the long-term, and can be recalibrated to adapt to changing usage patterns. But services need to cater for present demand, not some hypothetical in 30-50 years. That's the key point.

Adding commuter services now when there is no income argument to support it is silly. It has nothing to do with a long-term view. Do you run an empty line and make it a white elephant then justify that's the long-term future?

Luckily, the builders of the CRH network realized the high-speed lines should cater for long-distance travel, so it didn't become a white elephant.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 03:42 PM   #10327
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

Shanghai-Kunming HSR,Beipanjing Bridge close today.



__________________

Pansori, FM 2258, BEE2, CEVEP, Nowax and 1 others liked this post
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 06:13 PM   #10328
oliver999
starwar
 
oliver999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,148
Likes (Received): 1142

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Looking at the average incomes, that is not the case - not for everyday use. They may be able to afford an occasional weekend trip, but a peasant or migrant cannot afford routine, regular use. These people move to the cities and are provided housing already because their wages are so low, so I doubt they even consider using CRH unless in the worst case scenario they cannot secure the slow train or bus trickets for their annual CNY hometown.

.
construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.
__________________
项羽问:怎么样?
骑兵们敬佩地回答:和大王说的一样!
oliver999 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:03 PM   #10329
skyridgeline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,524
Likes (Received): 1217

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
For migrants, they get housing by their employer and make very low wages so they won't likely splurge on the weekend with a CRH outing when their families back in the rural areas need the money for useful things.

For the middle class, it makes little sense to rent a place in the city for the work week only and then commute back for the weekend. While rents are cheap by international standards, they eat into a significant portion of their income and CRH just eats away even more of whatever little disposable income they have left.

Hence, out-of-town commutes are not common in Chinese cities. You rent in town and stay in town and go home for major festivals such as CNY. Instead, the middle class would be occasional travelers who take the CRH for an outing, or for a longer vacation during a golden week holiday. Hence, providing CRH commuter service isn't the smartest thing to do economically at this point.

Keep in mind while the population centres along the major lines, such as Beijing-Guangzhou, are huge, intercity commuter travel is still uncommon given the cost concerns. It is actually more economical to rent in town than to commute by CRH. The commuting cost can easily equate to the rental itself.
....
If 200 million migrants made four "commuting distance" trips annually at say US $20 per trip, that would be US $16 billion in revenue for the CRH.

I think connectivity ( therefore, travelling time ) is a major problem for everyone. For a lot of people, more so than the price of CRH tickets.

I actually think daily commute (> 50km one way) to a typical job is silly regardless. However, there should be enough unique/special circumstances to demand "commuting" services ( if not now, then in the near future). Urban planning policies will have a big impact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver999 View Post
construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.
They all have skills. It's just some are more valued than others.
skyridgeline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:16 PM   #10330
hamstergogogo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 28
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver999 View Post
construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.
1. most of them don't have benefits other than salary. not very good benefit packages to say the least.

2. they are skilled construction workers. I think you are trying to equate 'no skill'='no college education and doesn't know how to work in an office on a computer', which is ironic since nowadays fresh college graduates with computer knowledge only earn a fraction of what construction workers do.



anyway, it seems quite outdated to discuss whether people can afford HSR in China, especially considering the latest news that over 60% of trains in service will be HST starting January 2016.

edit: just noticed the debate is about HSR commuting. The definition of HSR and ICL are somewhat ambiguous in China, and since commuter rail was almost nonexistent before, this creates some confusion. I think the next phase is the construction of ICLs, which by definition may cater to some commuters while by standard they are also HSRs.

Last edited by hamstergogogo; November 20th, 2015 at 07:23 PM.
hamstergogogo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:29 PM   #10331
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
For migrants, they get housing by their employer and make very low wages so they won't likely splurge on the weekend with a CRH outing when their families back in the rural areas need the money for useful things.

For the middle class, it makes little sense to rent a place in the city for the work week only and then commute back for the weekend. While rents are cheap by international standards, they eat into a significant portion of their income
And the difference of costs, between renting a place in a worker dormitory or renting or buying a house adequate for wife, child and grandparents, and paying for childīs education and grandparentsī medical care (which they arenīt getting free at public cost because they donīt have city hukou) also eats into a significant portion of income.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The average private sector urban income in Beijing is 36k RMB, or about 3k RMB a month. A roundtrip C train ticket to Tianjin costs 110 RMB. I probably would balk to spend 4% of my monthly gross salary for one outing to a nearby city. That's why even the middle class would be occasional travelers, and not CRH commuters. Looking at these figures, I would interpret occasional to be not even once a month.
A roundtrip T, K or number train ticket costs 37 to 43 yuan.
And trip time, one way, exceeds 2 hours for several slow trains.

When an urban professional in Tianjin needs a business trip to Beijing and back, a slow train means spending 4 hours +time at destination. CRH means slightly over 1 hour + time at destination.
Is saving these 70 yuan worth taking 3 extra hours out of a working day?
Note that a return trip by D train costs 79 yuan, and takes 48 minutes one way.
Unfortunately, only 1 D train daily.
Should more D trains be operated between Beijing and Tianjin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Tomb-sweeping day is not a week-long "golden week" holiday, so it is unlikely most of the urban middle class can head back to their hometowns for the ritual ceremonies.
If the trip time is 10 hour either way, it makes little sense to spend 2 days travelling to be at destination for a few hours. However, spending 2...4 hours in a high speed train is a more attractive proposal for a special weekend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The migrants don't have much of a choice for CNY. Not only is it a traditional family get-together festival, factories where these migrants work shut down for much of the month around CNY, so they have no work to do anyway. Hence, this mass migration takes place.
Peasants do not mass migrate out of their villages when fields shut down for winter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
golden week.

The tradition is migrants head home once a year around CNY. This is not a cost concern, but a cultural one. That being said, it is not a head home at any cost solution, but rather a slow trip back using economic (non-CRH) means.
National Day is also a golden week, but unlike New Year, not a cultural tradition. Do migrants stay in cities for the National Day golden week, or go home?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 07:32 PM   #10332
hamstergogogo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 28
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
Shanghai-Kunming HSR,Beipanjing Bridge close today.
awesome. Beipan Jiang (Beipan River) is already home to several impressive bridges, including a couple of world's highest bridges and the current world's highest railway bridge. Upon completion, this new bridge will be the world's highest railway bridge.
__________________

Pansori liked this post
hamstergogogo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 10:29 PM   #10333
hmmwv
Registered User
 
hmmwv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,391
Likes (Received): 420

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I prefer the record of the CRH380BL at 487.3 km/h.
True, but that CRH380BL trainset was a test train with added motor cars, while the CRH380AL was a commercial train with normal configuration.
__________________
The building under construction next to Shanghai Tower is Oriental Financial Center. The "plot" next to Jinmao is reserved green belt and no skyscraper will be built there.

hightower1 liked this post
hmmwv no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2015, 11:11 PM   #10334
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Quote:
Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
I love the look of this CRH350. Is it a ground up design or is it based on one of the European or Japanese train models?

CRH3(380B) > CRH350 > CRH5 > CRH500. Love these looks the best.
__________________

ARHANGELstGAVRIIL liked this post
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2015, 05:48 AM   #10335
naimabep
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Manchester / Selangor
Posts: 233
Likes (Received): 123

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I love the look of this CRH350. Is it a ground up design or is it based on one of the European or Japanese train models?

CRH3(380B) > CRH350 > CRH5 > CRH500. Love these looks the best.
looks alike like Bombardier Zefiro with a shorter head lamp.
__________________

FM 2258 liked this post
naimabep no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2015, 06:34 AM   #10336
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,944
Likes (Received): 18211

Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver999 View Post
construct workers(no skill) earn at least 10000USD a year. yangtz river delta constructer workders (no skill) can earn 20000USD a year. costs is not a problem.
Please provide a credible source for the figures. Also, I suggest you calculate how much a Tianjin construction worker would spend commuting to Beijing on a C train daily and you will be amazed how unaffordable such a journey would be.



Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
I think connectivity ( therefore, travelling time ) is a major problem for everyone. For a lot of people, more so than the price of CRH tickets.

I actually think daily commute (> 50km one way) to a typical job is silly regardless. However, there should be enough unique/special circumstances to demand "commuting" services ( if not now, then in the near future). Urban planning policies will have a big impact.
That's why Chinese cities are on a subway building spree. That's how the masses can get to work in an affordable and efficient way. Luckily, Chinese cities are not as sprawled out as their Western counterparts yet due to more dense planning practices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
And the difference of costs, between renting a place in a worker dormitory or renting or buying a house adequate for wife, child and grandparents, and paying for childīs education and grandparentsī medical care (which they arenīt getting free at public cost because they donīt have city hukou) also eats into a significant portion of income.
That is exactly why adding stations on existing long HSR lines to cater for commutes is more than silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
When an urban professional in Tianjin needs a business trip to Beijing and back, a slow train means spending 4 hours +time at destination. CRH means slightly over 1 hour + time at destination.
Is saving these 70 yuan worth taking 3 extra hours out of a working day?
Note that a return trip by D train costs 79 yuan, and takes 48 minutes one way.
Unfortunately, only 1 D train daily.
Should more D trains be operated between Beijing and Tianjin?
Business travel is not the same as regular commuting. The CRH network has been very beneficial to the business traveler, especially between Beijing and Shanghai where there is so much business traffic and flights are unpredictable these days.

There are plenty of CRH trains between Beijing and Tianjin. They are the "C" trains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Peasants do not mass migrate out of their villages when fields shut down for winter.
Peasants don't go anywhere unless they migrate to the cities. Period. The migrants that were formerly from these farming villages go home during CNY. That's the mass migration. You should research some news reports on the sheer numbers of this annual migration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
National Day is also a golden week, but unlike New Year, not a cultural tradition. Do migrants stay in cities for the National Day golden week, or go home?
The country does not shut down for as long during the other golden weeks. The middle class can now start to go abroad, while the migrants don't likely have enough time to make a home visit.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2015, 07:44 AM   #10337
flankerjun
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Shenyang/Wuhan
Posts: 461
Likes (Received): 1230

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I love the look of this CRH350. Is it a ground up design or is it based on one of the European or Japanese train models?

CRH3(380B) > CRH350 > CRH5 > CRH500. Love these looks the best.
groundup design,crh350 is getting rid of the shadow of Germany and JP
flankerjun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2015, 09:58 AM   #10338
chornedsnorkack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 4,978
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamstergogogo View Post

anyway, it seems quite outdated to discuss whether people can afford HSR in China, especially considering the latest news that over 60% of trains in service will be HST starting January 2016.
And thatīs a problem.
Could you give details? How many slow speed trains are in service?
chornedsnorkack no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2015, 06:45 PM   #10339
hamstergogogo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 28
Likes (Received): 16

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Could you give details? How many slow speed trains are in service?
starting January 2016, there will be 1980.5 pairs of CRH trains out of a total of 3142 pairs.

For comparison, in July 2014, there were 1330 pairs of CRH trains out of a total of 2447 pairs. The total number of trains in 2009 was 1551 pairs. The number of slow trains has not changed much over the years.
__________________

Grunnen, chornedsnorkack liked this post
hamstergogogo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2015, 08:15 PM   #10340
Grunnen
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,098
Likes (Received): 58

Interesting. That's really a quick growth. But I suppose there has also been a lot of 'room upwards'. In a small country like the Netherlands there are already about 2750 train pairs per day, and in India even more than 6000.
Grunnen no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium