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Old December 11th, 2015, 07:09 PM   #10461
luhai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
People getting richer does not diminish demand for travel. .
But they would have more alernatives, also perhaps have more flexiable vacation plans rather than crowd around national holidays. People right now would actualy give up their vacation day for more money, perhaps in the future, vacation days to be actually used as vacation days would be more valuable. Additionally, they will be less willing to sleep in the area between carriages, and on luggage rails.


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Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post

Or airline-style demand-management pricing.
I can see that in the future when regular joe can afford to travel at anytime. (perhaps when China becomes a post-industrial society). Right now, if that is done, it would mean the only time people are able to travel, they will be priced out of that opportunity. That's the stuff that will lead to another revolution. The the mad rush, first come first serve system as crappy as it is, have a certain sense of fairness to it.

Last edited by luhai; December 11th, 2015 at 07:41 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 07:34 PM   #10462
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Originally Posted by luhai View Post
But they would have more alternatives, also perhaps have more flexible vacation plans rather than crowd around national holidays. People right now would actually give up their vacation day for more money, perhaps in the future, vacation days to be actually used as vacation days would be more valuable.
I think that would help, particularly if people could and would take at least 4 weeks per year off.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 07:41 PM   #10463
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I think that would help, particularly if people could and would take at least 4 weeks per year off.
A lot people already have that, yet they don't use it. They would trade it for money at end of year. The bottomline is people are still too poor to value time off vs just money.
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Old December 11th, 2015, 08:00 PM   #10464
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Originally Posted by luhai View Post
A lot people already have that, yet they don't use it. They would trade it for money at end of year. The bottomline is people are still too poor to value time off vs just money.
Why do most (?) companies allow it? Is it somehow cheaper to give extra money instead of distributing the work to fewer employees temporarily?
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Old December 11th, 2015, 09:10 PM   #10465
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How did Japanese, back in 1964 when they were relatively poor and hardworking, stop people from crowding into Shinkansens without or with paying for tickets?
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Old December 12th, 2015, 12:34 AM   #10466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How did Japanese, back in 1964 when they were relatively poor and hardworking, stop people from crowding into Shinkansens without or with paying for tickets?

They are so good.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 12:35 AM   #10467
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Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
CNR Changchun,they produce a train very two days

Awesome pictures. This type of production pictures are my favorites. Thanks for sharing.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 05:25 AM   #10468
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Speed increase won't improve capacity. Or improve it marginally.

However the boarding procedure in Chinese HSR stations is beyond absurd. It is and will remain the main capacity constraint and bottleneck if no changes will be made.
What's wrong with the boarding procedure? I was on 6 HSR trips this week alone (Shanghai - Beijing- Panjin - Beijing - Shanghai, Shanghai - Ningbo - Shanghai), and a bunch of other times in the last few months, and I haven't had anything to complain about as far as train boarding goes. How should they be doing it?
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Old December 12th, 2015, 12:41 PM   #10469
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Reducing speed limits in China and no relationship with Wenzhou accident

Posted in this thread over a year ago:

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Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
From Wikipedia (in spanish, sorry, but sources are in english):

“In April 2011, the new Minister of Railways Sheng Guangzu said that due to corruption, safety may have been compromised on some construction projects and completion dates may have to be pushed back.[44] Sheng announced that all trains in the high speed rail network would operate at a maximum speed of 300 km/h (186 mph) beginning on July 1, 2011
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4cd5723e-6685-11e0-ac4d-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1Jn3JecpQ
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9MJ64RO0.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90776/90882/7351162.html
This was in response to concerns over safety, low ridership due to high ticket prices,
http://www.businessinsider.com/chinas-high-speed-rail-dilemma-2011-1
and high energy usage.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703983104576262330447308782.html
On June 13, 2011, the MOR clarified in a press conference that the speed reduction was not due to safety concerns but to offer more affordable tickets for trains at 250 km/h (155 mph) and increase ridership. Higher speed train travel uses greater energy and imposes more wear on expensive machinery. Railway officials lowered the top speed of trains on most lines that were running at 350 km/h (217 mph) to 300 km/h (186 mph)”.
..........
The Wenzhou train collision was July 23, 2011 on a reduced to 200 km/h line.
..........
In China it is commercially circulated to 350 km/h between 01/08/2008 (Beijing-Tianjin) and at least 28/08/2011 (Wuhan-Guangzhou), to my knowledge. From 01/07/2011 was reduced line-to-line speed. CRH2C-2, CRH3C and CRH380A circulated at that speed were.

What I do believe is that the accident may have caused the delay in return to previous peak speed
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Old December 12th, 2015, 03:01 PM   #10470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
What's wrong with the boarding procedure? I was on 6 HSR trips this week alone (Shanghai - Beijing- Panjin - Beijing - Shanghai, Shanghai - Ningbo - Shanghai), and a bunch of other times in the last few months, and I haven't had anything to complain about as far as train boarding goes. How should they be doing it?
It doesn't go fast enough and is fundamentally very inefficient with artificial bottlenecks along the way.

I had a chance to take CRH services twice during the Golden week holidays and once they just about managed to complete boarding on time while the other time they didn't and train departed about 8 minutes late having affected other services on the same platform. Staff and passengers seemed very stressed too. It's clearly a very flawed boarding system.

The very fact that they only have 10 or so minutes to let 1200 people through those narrow platform gates shows a fundamental inefficiency of passenger flow handling.

It may be less of a problem during off-peak times or while the demand generally isn't too high on some lines. But once the system will start filling up with more passengers that will result in serious constraints and capacity limitations to the entire operation of the system even if other parts of the chain work perfectly well.

Last edited by Pansori; December 12th, 2015 at 03:14 PM.
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Old December 12th, 2015, 11:10 PM   #10471
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Given the scarcity of seats, could CR introduce double-deck trainsets on CRH routes - or is the loading gauge restricted? Given they went for 3+2 high density seating from the outset, I'm surprised the initial roll-out wasn't for double deck trains, at least on the the trunk routes like Beijing-Shanghai.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 02:01 AM   #10472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
It doesn't go fast enough and is fundamentally very inefficient with artificial bottlenecks along the way.

I had a chance to take CRH services twice during the Golden week holidays and once they just about managed to complete boarding on time while the other time they didn't and train departed about 8 minutes late having affected other services on the same platform. Staff and passengers seemed very stressed too. It's clearly a very flawed boarding system.

The very fact that they only have 10 or so minutes to let 1200 people through those narrow platform gates shows a fundamental inefficiency of passenger flow handling.

It may be less of a problem during off-peak times or while the demand generally isn't too high on some lines. But once the system will start filling up with more passengers that will result in serious constraints and capacity limitations to the entire operation of the system even if other parts of the chain work perfectly well.
But Golden Week traffic flows are WAY higher than typical flows, and it'd be very difficult to come up with an efficient way of handling such an enormous passenger load. They do add additional trains as much as they can, but there's only so much they can do. For typical weekly loads, even on the busiest of routes (ex. Shanghai-Beijing) in my experience the current system works just fine. At terminal stations the boarding starts early to make sure there's enough time for everyone to get on.

I do like the idea of double-deck trains, though - certainly some routes could definitely use the extra capacity, though I'm not sure the trains would have enough power to pull a 16 double-deck car train at HSR speeds.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 03:31 AM   #10473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
But Golden Week traffic flows are WAY higher than typical flows, and it'd be very difficult to come up with an efficient way of handling such an enormous passenger load. They do add additional trains as much as they can, but there's only so much they can do. For typical weekly loads, even on the busiest of routes (ex. Shanghai-Beijing) in my experience the current system works just fine. At terminal stations the boarding starts early to make sure there's enough time for everyone to get on.
It's not about additional trains. There are no problems with that. It's about letting 1200 people (or 2 times that if there are TWO 16 coach trains departing from the same isle platform at the same time). It becomes obvious what I mean once you board the train during a busy time. I really don't see what's there not to understand. Many people have to go through a narrow platform gate. That means a bottleneck. It affects capacity.

Don't get me wrong. I do admire and love Chinese HSR system. It's the best in the world. But boarding procedure is just wrong. It's obvious why and I state that based on my personal experience and simply logic of passenger flow management. 1200 people who have to pass through a 4 meter-wide area means capacity issues. Simple as that.

I understand that they do it for a reason: security and behavior of passengers which isn't always great in China. But that is a serious obstruction for an efficient and smooth service. It will have to be changed.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 09:30 AM   #10474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How did Japanese, back in 1964 when they were relatively poor and hardworking, stop people from crowding into Shinkansens without or with paying for tickets?
Japan in 1964 is actually more than twice as wealthy per capita compared to China in 2014, when you take inflation and currency swings into consideration. Though I don't think the difference is that as much as the chart suggest*, China is very much a "third world" country with many "third world" country problems, despite it having a "first world" infrastructure. Like I said before, people need to get wealthier and China still have a long way to go.




*It would be nicer if they had PPP to adjusted international dollar, but unfortunately data does not go back that far. In either case, China is a lot poorer than Japan, even compared to 1960s Japan. Just compare the family in this video vs the family of a typical blue collar worker in China today (remember, the wife of that Japanese Man is a housewife and needs to support 3 kids as well, and typical Chinese families are dual income and need to only support 1 kid.

Last edited by luhai; December 13th, 2015 at 10:39 AM.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 09:41 AM   #10475
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CRH2G, Lanzhou Station








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Old December 13th, 2015, 09:50 AM   #10476
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Beijing-Shenyang get ahead of the schedule for 2 years,from 2019 to 2017,






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Old December 13th, 2015, 01:27 PM   #10477
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On average China is indeed still poor, but in absolute numbers there are many wealthy people. Swiss economy derives a substantial percentage of income from rich Chinese buying our luxury products. Chinese tourists in Europe aren't rare anymore either.

And rail infrastructure looks nothing like third world.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 04:23 PM   #10478
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CRH2G, Lanzhou Station








wow ..... so beautiful !!
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Old December 13th, 2015, 11:36 PM   #10479
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On average China is indeed still poor, but in absolute numbers there are many wealthy people. Swiss economy derives a substantial percentage of income from rich Chinese buying our luxury products. Chinese tourists in Europe aren't rare anymore either.

And rail infrastructure looks nothing like third world.
Indeed, if swissland opens it doors not just to rich Chinese tourist, but also Chinese economic migrants as well, then you will see the poor people. Migration policy can be a great filter to get rid of the 99% and their problems.

Indeed, China did manage to built many first world infrastructures and some first world industries. Hopefully these investments will be useful in upgrading China's economy, allow China to hike up the value chain and generally people more wealthy in the future.
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Old December 13th, 2015, 11:46 PM   #10480
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Indeed, if swissland opens it doors not just to rich Chinese tourist, but also Chinese economic migrants as well, then you will see the poor people. Migration policy can be a great filter to get rid of the 99% and their problems.
It's ok, if I want to see some poor people then I can always take a vacation outside the developed world.

But seriously just like you we prefer people who come, leave some money and then go to their own homes again. There are some Chinese living here (I know one at work), but very few compared with USA.
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