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Old August 31st, 2016, 03:09 PM   #10961
coth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
I am always amazed how cheap the tickets are..
And we always amazed how expensive western software, games, music, movies etc. A single AAA title game cost some 150-300 of income adjusted dollars. In some South American countries it's even up to 800-1000 of income adjusted dollars.

Western people tends to have very narrow outlook, so fails to understand that incomes, pricing policies and currencies are different all around the world. They tends to apply western pricing policy in developing countries and then whining about sharing, what they call piracy.

So it's not that cheap considering median income in China is not much above $350-400.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 08:59 PM   #10962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
And we always amazed how expensive western software, games, music, movies etc. A single AAA title game cost some 150-300 of income adjusted dollars. In some South American countries it's even up to 800-1000 of income adjusted dollars.

Western people tends to have very narrow outlook, so fails to understand that incomes, pricing policies and currencies are different all around the world. They tends to apply western pricing policy in developing countries and then whining about sharing, what they call piracy.

So it's not that cheap considering median income in China is not much above $350-400.
Are u kidding me? Even a waiter in a small chinese city has income more than 400, but chinese farmers may have that income
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Old September 1st, 2016, 04:22 AM   #10963
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
How selling seats that would otherwise stay empty (as is the case now on many routes) for a discounted advance price going to 'price out' significant portion of the population on those routes? More like to the contrary. Especially given that price-sensitive portion of the population would typically do more planning and are ready to sacrifice more time than those who can afford to pay more on the last minute? How exactly are they going to get priced out if they would pay less than normal with just a little bit of planning?

The problem with this narrative is that it simply does not connect even the nearest dots and seems to typically appeal to social justice warriors who masturbate at the ideas of total equality and lack of reasonable options and diversification serving for different groups of passengers and their needs.

That's only true if you single side bias the pricing that prices can only be cheaper than the current standard prices under a dynamic pricing scheming. But the truth of the matter is, for dynamic pricing to work, prices need to be much higher current standard price during reasonable travel slots and this will price people out; else such scheme will create more loss than the original pricing scheme.

In all HSR trains i have being in, the train is completely sold in economy class 2 or 3 hours before the scheduled time, and whatever seats that available is filled by passenger come from mid-route (even those are often filled by people with standing tickets) As for poor people in China, they are precisely the people have does not have flexible vacation time, must adhere to factory production schedule and must travel in holiday peak travel time. Rise prices during these times mean they may not being able see their family for the year, and this kind of problem will and has lead to riots.

During 1990s, when tickets is just a piece of paper, scalper effectively created dynamic pricing in the form of secondary markets. Riots had happen cause people has being priced out of transportation. If such thing is institutionalized by the government, then that government's days may be numbered.

The only place I see dynamic pricing is possible is in 2nd and 1st class seats, which is in lower demand than economy, and not perceived as an luxury rather than a basic need.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 07:55 AM   #10964
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What is the cost floor of the marginal cost of filling an otherwise empty seat?
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:05 AM   #10965
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What is the cost floor of the marginal cost of filling an otherwise empty seat?


the opportunity cost of erratic pricing.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 10:49 AM   #10966
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Just look at the statistics. The countries where rail ridership is the highest (Switzerland, Japan, The Netherlands) are all countries where flat pricing rather than yield management is used.
Swiss Railways SBB applies yield management (flexible pricing), as well.
SuperSaver Tickets!

http://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and...r-tickets.html
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:39 AM   #10967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
Swiss Railways SBB applies yield management (flexible pricing), as well.
SuperSaver Tickets!

http://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and...r-tickets.html
Discount tickets like this are not quite the same as the systems in what I would call fully yield managed railways like the UK or Sweden. Here you can get fares ranging from 199kr to 1600kr and everything in-between on the same route simply based on the how far in advance you book. I see the discount tickets as a "third way", a way in which to keep fixed prices but attempt to entice people to fill the "empty seats" that Pansori alludes to being a potential issue in a fixed price situation.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 02:25 PM   #10968
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Indeed. There is a difference between a ticket having a different cost on different days depending on the load, and a ticket having different cost for different passengers sitting on the same vehicle.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:04 PM   #10969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
And we always amazed how expensive western software, games, music, movies etc. A single AAA title game cost some 150-300 of income adjusted dollars. In some South American countries it's even up to 800-1000 of income adjusted dollars.

Western people tends to have very narrow outlook, so fails to understand that incomes, pricing policies and currencies are different all around the world. They tends to apply western pricing policy in developing countries and then whining about sharing, what they call piracy.

So it's not that cheap considering median income in China is not much above $350-400.
Do you have the source of the data that the median income in China is USD 350-400 ?
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:21 PM   #10970
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Originally Posted by xjtyou View Post
Do you have the source of the data that the median income in China is USD 350-400 ?
Not sure, but a source for "disposable income":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ome_per_capita
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Old September 1st, 2016, 08:49 PM   #10971
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CHINA | High Speed Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Not sure, but a source for "disposable income":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ome_per_capita
dis·pos·a·ble in·come
noun
noun: disposable income; plural noun: disposable incomes
income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes.


enough said.



I make $7200 a month, but can only save $500 a month because of mortgage, car payments, health insurance, kids, 401k and other crap. So by this measure my income level is exactly the same as the average level in China despite the fact I'm suppose to be high income in the US.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 10:23 PM   #10972
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401k
That is a voluntary pension funding scheme. I would not call that an expense.
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Old September 1st, 2016, 11:34 PM   #10973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai View Post
I make $7200 a month, but can only save $500 a month because of mortgage, car payments, health insurance, kids, 401k and other crap. So by this measure my income level is exactly the same as the average level in China despite the fact I'm suppose to be high income in the US.
Disposable income = total income - all personal taxes
Discretionary income = disposable income - all money needed to maintain a given lifestyle

I don't know how much it is in China, but the published GDP per capita is ca 8,0000$ or about 15% of US level. From that one can estimate that a mean disposable income ratio can't be too different either.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 04:46 AM   #10974
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CHINA | High Speed Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Disposable income = total income - all personal taxes

Discretionary income = disposable income - all money needed to maintain a given lifestyle



I don't know how much it is in China, but the published GDP per capita is ca 8,0000$ or about 15% of US level. From that one can estimate that a mean disposable income ratio can't be too different either.


true in the US definition, however, if you follow his link where ge got 400 dollar figure it is defined as personal income less mandatory expenditure such as housing and insurance/pension payment included in 五险一金 as well. Not just taxes. In Chinese 可支配收入 is defined as that for the cited statistic. In any case, this topics get extremely complicated as there money distortion of the market of that can make fixed expenses higher or lower and some "corruptive" practices are very common. For example, when i took a job in China back in 2009; I was offered ¥3000 per month as housing subsidies (you have the option of staying in the company dorms and eats in the company cafeteria for free (option mostly taken by blue collar workers) or you can get housing subsidies when you rent off site. The company's own HR actually told to rent a cheaper place, but report the rent as ¥3000, then pocket the difference is the way to go rather than rent a more expensive apartment. In this case, my rental expense was taken out of the picture, however, in reality I was actually make an "black" income from a supposed expense. Samething happened to my grandma, where she pay ¥50 rent for her working unit house (my grand parent did not purchase the house during the 1990s housing reforms, big mistake), but she was then rent out two of the bedrooms out for ¥600 each. So officially, she makes almost income and has to pay ¥50 rent, but in reality there is ¥1200 black income from that ¥50 place she rents... And these sorts of things are still very common in China, which makes measurement of income almost impossible.

In any case, all this is interesting but not really related to HSR and perhaps should be discussed in the rather inactive Mainland section of this forum. In the end of day, HSR is cheap in China relative in other countries, but expensive compared to regular slow train. It is competitive with airlines and buses, and fit within affordability range for most people. (you can easily spent ¥553 (cost of economy ticket from Beijing to Shanghai) doing non-HSR related things and is affordable for people making typical wages in the city. (Keep in Mind income taxes in China are very low for people making normal wages due a generous 3500 monthly deduction and highly progressive tax rate. For example, a person making ¥5000 a month in wages would only need to pay ¥45 in income tax and ¥10000 per month income would only cost you ¥745 in monthly tax. Most tax revenue in China comes from VAT.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:15 AM   #10975
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Comparing some prices:
Mainland China:
Shanghai Hongqiao-Nanjing South: quoted as D trains 311 km, G trains 295 km
price D train 95 yuan 5 jiao
G train 134 yuan 5 jiao
Taiwan:
1 Taiwan dollar rated 21,05 fen
Banqiao-Zuoying 332 km
Standard Seat T$ 1460, equals 307 yuan
Japan:
1 yen rated 6,445 fen
Tokaido Shinkansen Yokohama-Nagoya 317 km
I get 9720 yen
making it about 630 yuan

Can anyone check these numbers?
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 03:46 PM   #10976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai View Post
In the end of day, HSR is cheap in China relative in other countries, but expensive compared to regular slow train. It is competitive with airlines and buses, and fit within affordability range for most people. (you can easily spent ¥553 (cost of economy ticket from Beijing to Shanghai) doing non-HSR related things and is affordable for people making typical wages in the city.
I think almost all of us can agree with that

HSR or airlines for those with a bit more money and limited time, slow trains or buses for those who need to save every dollar. Makes sense to me.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 08:13 PM   #10977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
I think almost all of us can agree with that

HSR or airlines for those with a bit more money and limited time, slow trains or buses for those who need to save every dollar. Makes sense to me.
Are buses actually that much cheaper compared to D trains?
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 06:03 PM   #10978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
And we always amazed how expensive western software, games, music, movies etc. A single AAA title game cost some 150-300 of income adjusted dollars. In some South American countries it's even up to 800-1000 of income adjusted dollars.

Western people tends to have very narrow outlook, so fails to understand that incomes, pricing policies and currencies are different all around the world. They tends to apply western pricing policy in developing countries and then whining about sharing, what they call piracy.

So it's not that cheap considering median income in China is not much above $350-400.
Thanks for the condescending remarks. I am well aware of purchasing power, at the end married with an economist

The ticket prices are cheap, period. Almost all the Chinese can buy them.
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Old September 4th, 2016, 06:09 PM   #10979
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Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Are buses actually that much cheaper compared to D trains?
It depends . Sometime the ticket of bus is cheaper bu takes longer time for journey , sometime the D train will be the more expensive one but saving time .
. like a trip from Guangzhou to Shaoguan :

A bus ticket is 100 RMB and takes about 3~4 hours .
A K/T/Z train ticket is 37.5 RMB and takes about 2.5 hours (delay sometimes)
A D train of Wuhan–Guangzhou High-Speed Railway from Guangzhou to shaoguan is 69.5 RMB and takes about 2 hours (about 30mins for waiting other G train passing through the station)
A G train ticket is 104.5 RMB and takes 51mins ~ 1h .

You can choose the one according to your need . But for me , I would like to take G train .
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Old September 4th, 2016, 06:58 PM   #10980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dixiadetie View Post
It depends . Sometime the ticket of bus is cheaper bu takes longer time for journey , sometime the D train will be the more expensive one but saving time .
. like a trip from Guangzhou to Shaoguan :

A bus ticket is 100 RMB and takes about 3~4 hours .
A K/T/Z train ticket is 37.5 RMB and takes about 2.5 hours (delay sometimes)
A D train of Wuhan–Guangzhou High-Speed Railway from Guangzhou to shaoguan is 69.5 RMB and takes about 2 hours (about 30mins for waiting other G train passing through the station)
A G train ticket is 104.5 RMB and takes 51mins ~ 1h .

You can choose the one according to your need . But for me , I would like to take G train .
We see that bus is by far the slowest and also among the most expensive options. How does that go with earlier claims by some forumers that buses are 'cheaper'?
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