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Old September 21st, 2016, 07:57 AM   #11041
chornedsnorkack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
. . . and it runs only once per day with sleeper cars.
And?
Beijing-Moscow runs, with sleeper trains, twice a week, once via Manchuria and once via Mongolia.
Transmanchurian takes 146 or so hours.
There is now no train Beijing-Urumqu-Alashankou-Astana or Beijing-Urumqi-Khorgos-Almaty.
So, if there were a high speed sleeper train Beijing-Urumqi-Astana-Moscow, arriving in 2 days not 6, how often should it run?
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Old September 21st, 2016, 08:35 AM   #11042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
So you only meant routes with no realistic alternatives such as Shanghai-Qingdao route which has no direct railway between them? You should have clarified that from the beginning because I thought you were applying this as a general rule. Admittedly that's a strange example to give. Comparing bus to a railway which isn't used by anyone, not only 'migrant workers' for very obvious geographical (not pricing) reasons.

But what about realistic routes that have alternative modes of transport that are comparable by distance?

Which option do masses choose to go on Beijing-Xi'an? Guangzhou-Nanning? Shanghai-Chiongqing?

a) Bus
a) G train
b) D train

How do price options compare for those routes between different modes of transport?
There are direct G trains running between Shanghai and Qingdao without any need for changes. They take 6.5 hours and go via Jinan then out towards the coast.

6.5 hours is probably a stretch to the limit for HSR vs. flying with minimal time savings although that is considering no delays at the airport.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 09:13 AM   #11043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
There are direct G trains running between Shanghai and Qingdao without any need for changes. They take 6.5 hours and go via Jinan then out towards the coast.

6.5 hours is probably a stretch to the limit for HSR vs. flying with minimal time savings although that is considering no delays at the airport.
Yes, no need for changes.
But since they make a long detour, while a road makes a shortcut, that affects the price of buses.
Compare a fairly direct HSR route. Beijing-Changsha.
There are 4 G trains taking from 5:38 (G79) to 6:01 (G487), and further 12 take from 6:29 (G69 and G503) to 7:28 (G491).
Second class seat all 649 yuan.
How do buses compare?
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Old September 21st, 2016, 09:41 AM   #11044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How do buses compare?
I suppose hkskyline will answer this question regarding Guangzhou-Changsha and Shanghai-Chongqing routes.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 07:33 PM   #11045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Compare a fairly direct HSR route. Beijing-Changsha.
There are 4 G trains taking from 5:38 (G79) to 6:01 (G487), and further 12 take from 6:29 (G69 and G503) to 7:28 (G491).
Second class seat all 649 yuan.
How do buses compare?
You can try this search engine : http://www.keyunzhan.com

Beijing to Changsha bus for 320RMB.

Use it for your other city combinations.
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Old September 21st, 2016, 07:54 PM   #11046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You can try this search engine : http://www.keyunzhan.com

Beijing to Changsha bus for 320RMB.

Use it for your other city combinations.
Let's have a look.

Guangzhou-Nanning

Bus: ¥150-¥202, takes 8-10 hours
D train: ¥169-¥175, takes about 4 hours

My question to you: which option do migrant masses take from Guangzhou to Nanning - bus or high-speed train?
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 01:37 AM   #11047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Let's have a look.

Guangzhou-Nanning

Bus: ¥150-¥202, takes 8-10 hours
D train: ¥169-¥175, takes about 4 hours

My question to you: which option do migrant masses take from Guangzhou to Nanning - bus or high-speed train?


none of us here actually knows unless we start to conduct surveys...
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 10:03 AM   #11048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai View Post
none of us here actually knows unless we start to conduct surveys...
Some people here made explicit claims about their knowledge of the matter. Therefore we are awaiting their comment on Guangzhou-Nanning route.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 01:05 PM   #11049
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You can refer to this article to get some context on how dependent migrants are on buses during the annual CNY rush : http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ch..._132130148.htm

A simple google search can yield lots of useful information if you don't know enough about the topic.

I suggest you do some research yourself on pricing and come back when you find anomalies that you would like to discuss.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 02:48 PM   #11050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You can refer to this article to get some context on how dependent migrants are on buses during the annual CNY rush : http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/ch..._132130148.htm

A simple google search can yield lots of useful information if you don't know enough about the topic.

I suggest you do some research yourself on pricing and come back when you find anomalies that you would like to discuss.
No answer to the below question then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Let's have a look.

Guangzhou-Nanning

Bus: ¥150-¥202, takes 8-10 hours
D train: ¥169-¥175, takes about 4 hours

My question to you: which option do migrant masses take from Guangzhou to Nanning - bus or high-speed train?
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 03:03 PM   #11051
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I'm here for a constructive and meaningful discussion with people who are knowledgeable of at least the basics on this topic - who rides these trains, where the network is going, their impact on the national transport grid, etc. I'm not here to be a pricing search engine. Do it yourself.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 03:11 PM   #11052
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It should be good to see this new renovated station. I am glad they did not bulldoze it for a modern building in typical style. Together with the east-west railway across Shenzhen to Nanshan and Qianhai, it will be very convenient.

Quote:
Pinghu station to be put into operation soon
Shenzhen Daily
September 22nd 2016
Han Ximin


PINGHU Railway Station, after a two-year facelift, will be put into operation Monday, serving 148 intercity bullet trains between Shenzhen and Guangzhou every day, sources from Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. said.

Travelers can book train tickets for intercity trains through www.12306.cn., ticket booking hotlines, or at ticket counters and outlets starting from yesterday.

The railway station will serve travelers to Shantou, Chaozhou and Xiamen through the Xiamen-Shenzhen High-speed Railway.

The Huizhou-Shenzhen intercity rail, which is now under planning, will be linked with Pinghu Station through Nanping railway. The Shenzhen section of the rail runs 70 kilometers with 10 stations. A trip to Nanshan and Qianhai will take about 30 minutes when the rail is put into operation.

Pinghu station will be expanded into a transport hub, where Metro Line 10, which links to Futian Checkpoint, and Metro Line 17, which links to Luohu, will meet.

In 2014, the Guangzhou-Shenzhen Railway Co. decided to renovate the century-old station that had been inactive for eight years. The opening of the station will benefit about 1.7 million people in Pinghu and neighboring Fenggang and Guanlan.

The station was put into use in October 1911, when the Guangzhou-Kowloon Railway was put into operation. Service was suspended in 2006.

The Pinghu subdistrict government has budgeted 50 million yuan (US$7.49 million) in 2016 to improve the urban environment, landscaping and infrastructure around the railway station.
Quote:
Work on new railway to accelerate
Shenzhen Daily
September 22nd 2016

Shenzhen and Guangzhou Railway Group Corp. will speed up construction on the eastern section of the Shenzhen-Maoming High-speed Railway, according to an agreement signed recently.

The eastern section will run between Shenzhen and Jiangmen, spanning over the Pearl River.

Work on the western section of the line, between Jiangmen and Maoming, is going smoothly with the 1,000th Y-shape beam successfully erected Sept. 19, paving the way for the opening of the west section in 2018.

The Shenzhen-Maoming rail, which runs 388 kilometers from Shenzhen North Station to Maoming East Station, is part of China’s coastal railway network.
The western section runs 266 kilometers and covers Jiangmen, Yangjiang and Maoming in western Guangdong. The section has 15 stations and is designated for a speed of 200 kilometers per hour.

Work on the Shenzhen-Jiangmen section proceeds slower than the western section because it involves the huge undertaking of constructing a bridge over the Pearl River.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 04:16 PM   #11053
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I'm here for a constructive and meaningful discussion with people who are knowledgeable of at least the basics on this topic - who rides these trains, where the network is going, their impact on the national transport grid, etc. I'm not here to be a pricing search engine. Do it yourself.
Reason I'm asking those questions is because so far you failed to provide a single valid argument or piece of data to support your claims. Therefore 'meaningful discussion' was out of reach.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 05:30 PM   #11054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Reason I'm asking those questions is because so far you failed to provide a single valid argument or piece of data to support your claims. Therefore 'meaningful discussion' was out of reach.
I noted long-distance bus travel is cheaper than rail, which is why the migrant classes prefer so, and the actual usage figures show it. Anyone who knows how to get around in China and have done so would agree. That is a basic fact that you have not grasped. Hope you have read the link I had just posted to understand how these migrants travel.

And feel free to do your research and find data points to prove me wrong. I will be delighted to see what you can find.

Last edited by hkskyline; September 22nd, 2016 at 05:36 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 06:18 PM   #11055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I noted long-distance bus travel is cheaper than rail, which is why the migrant classes prefer so, and the actual usage figures show it.
Indeed you made such claim and then failed to prove it. Moreover, just a few posts back the opposite was proven.

Quote:
Anyone who knows how to get around in China and have done so would agree. That is a basic fact that you have not grasped. Hope you have read the link I had just posted to understand how these migrants travel.
So far your 'facts' have been along the lines of 'I know' or 'everyone knows'. Yet you failed to provide a single data point to actually demonstrate that. Not only that, you refuse to address questions that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 09:27 PM   #11056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Indeed you made such claim and then failed to prove it. Moreover, just a few posts back the opposite was proven.



So far your 'facts' have been along the lines of 'I know' or 'everyone knows'. Yet you failed to provide a single data point to actually demonstrate that. Not only that, you refuse to address questions that clearly demonstrate that you are wrong.


fyi, buses tend to be sleepers and allows for large luggage without checked-in fee. While HSR is quicker, but there restrictions that will make buses for attractive. They also serve routes and make stops where HSR does not. The fact that buses exist and their ridership far exceed rail or air on spring rush speaks to their utility.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 09:32 PM   #11057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Han Ximin
The station was put into use in October 1911, when the Guangzhou-Kowloon Railway was put into operation. Service was suspended in 2006.
Are there plans to reopen any other deserted stations?
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 09:34 PM   #11058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luhai View Post
fyi, buses tend to be sleepers and allows for large luggage without checked-in fee. While HSR is quicker, but there restrictions that will make buses for attractive. They also serve routes and make stops where HSR does not. The fact that buses exist and their ridership far exceed rail or air on spring rush speaks to their utility.
That certainly is true (and not only in China). Buses are a different mode of transport and have advantages and disadvantages over trains. For instance buses cannot go on rails while trains cannot go on roads, etc.

We however are trying to address some particular statements made here by hkskyline which he so far failed to back by any kind of data or logic and attempted to use a completely flawed example of pricing of high-speed trains vs buses as a base for his argument.

Last edited by Pansori; September 22nd, 2016 at 09:39 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 10:26 PM   #11059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
That certainly is true (and not only in China). Buses are a different mode of transport and have advantages and disadvantages over trains. For instance buses cannot go on rails while trains cannot go on roads, etc.

We however are trying to address some particular statements made here by hkskyline which he so far failed to back by any kind of data or logic and attempted to use a completely flawed example of pricing of high-speed trains vs buses as a base for his argument.
You need to find data points to prove me wrong. Fact is fact. Logic is logic. Not my problem you can't grasp that.

Migrants prefer buses over high-speed trains because of price. Simple logic. Don't understand why you can't see this obvious reality.

More bed-time reading for your ignorance : http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/...t_15715655.htm

Your belief that high-speed trains are better priced per km is quite a damning contrast to how migrants decide how they travel, and the statistical distribution of bus travel proves you very, very wrong.
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Old September 22nd, 2016, 10:34 PM   #11060
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post

Migrants prefer buses over high-speed trains because of price. Simple logic. Don't understand why you can't see this obvious reality.
Quote:
Train tickets for the route cost around 150 yuan ($23.50), that's 100 yuan less than the cost of the bus, but the price differential fails to give the rail companies an advantage, because it's often extremely difficult to buy train tickets during peak travel seasons such as Spring Festival or the summer holiday.
According to the article the key reasons for the popularity of buses are:

a) availability
b) lack of alternatives (like Shanghai-Qingdao route that you mentioned)

Those are fair points as the rail infrastructure in China is still very limited for most part.

No mention of price though. On the contrary, the article actually states that buses are more expensive. If I recall correctly, your argument was that buses are cheaper which is why migrant workers prefer them over hi-speed trains? Have you changed your opinion since that statement or are you once again completely lost in your arguments?

Let's go back to the Guangzhou-Nanning route. So what are migrant workers choosing when they travel from Guangzhou to Nanning? More expensive buses (based on the source that you provided) or cheaper high-speed trains on the same route? I know that may sound like a silly question when the answer is pretty obvious but grasping your logic is indeed complicated based on the contradicting statements and sources that you provide that go against your own claims.

Last edited by Pansori; September 22nd, 2016 at 10:45 PM.
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