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Old January 24th, 2017, 04:02 AM   #11301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerZavatar View Post
that Dalian - Yantai bridge is nuts!

edit: apparently it will be a tunnel, not a bridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohai_Strait_tunnel
Thanks for pointing that out, corrected
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Old January 24th, 2017, 08:23 AM   #11302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
I hope you can do some research on Shenzhen's history before posting so many ignorant remarks here.

A "city" cannot be defined based on population alone. The area where Shenzhen sits today was populated by numerous villages that numbered less than 30,000 people. It was not one big town. People were not commuting within this "city", but getting by with their everyday lives on the basic within their village clusters.
Oh, sure. The population of the 2050 square km of Baoan County in 1978 was about 300 000.
Most of these were rural people - scattered across the landscape in small villages at walking distance of their fields.
But not all these 300 000 people were evenly spread. Central places did exist. Such as Shenzhen and Nantong.
Shenzhen of 1978 had about 20 000 people within 3 square km. That many could not be fed by farming these 3 square km, nor by fields within walking distance. They must have been doing something else than farming, even in 1978.
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Old January 24th, 2017, 09:38 AM   #11303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Oh, sure. The population of the 2050 square km of Baoan County in 1978 was about 300 000.
Most of these were rural people - scattered across the landscape in small villages at walking distance of their fields.
But not all these 300 000 people were evenly spread. Central places did exist. Such as Shenzhen and Nantong.
Shenzhen of 1978 had about 20 000 people within 3 square km. That many could not be fed by farming these 3 square km, nor by fields within walking distance. They must have been doing something else than farming, even in 1978.
What makes you think they were only farming? If you look at a map, you will easily see the area borders a big river, which leads to the great big South China Sea. Fishing villages and pirates dotted the coastline.

Agricultural families are traditionally big, and China already had over 900 million people when Deng Xiaopeng announced economic reforms in the late 1970s. At the time, over 80% of the population lived in rural areas, so a sprinkle of a couple tens of thousands is nothing in the grand scheme of things. The area was a rural outpost, and not a major urban centre.

The key urban focal point at the time was Guangzhou, which had developed into a major trading centre between the West and China for hundreds of years prior to modern Shenzhen's creation by Deng Xiaopeng.

Suggest you do some researching on the area, such as this decent article : https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...st-megalopolis
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Old January 24th, 2017, 06:24 PM   #11304
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Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
Otherwise if it's just one of the 160km/hr upgrades they've been doing on some trunk lines, then it's a faster slow speed railway, with the advantage of double track but limited by most of the rolling stock to 120km/hr.
You mean there are now a total of 3 slow speed tracks between Kunming and Guangtong - 1 track on the old slow line and 2 tracks on the new slow line?
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Old February 1st, 2017, 01:35 AM   #11305
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Old February 1st, 2017, 11:51 PM   #11306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You mean there are now a total of 3 slow speed tracks between Kunming and Guangtong - 1 track on the old slow line and 2 tracks on the new slow line?
Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The old line was single track, with passing loops at wayside stations. The new line is double-track, also with passing loops at Lufeng and Guangtong. We don't have any useful information whether it is slow speed (160km/hr), or maybe a true HSR (250 or 350km/hr) that's just waiting for a.) the connection to the main lines east at Kunming South station that happened just a month ago, and b.) The connection thru the suburbs of Kunming between Anning and Kunming South.

BTW it's now over 2 years since I travelled on a slow speed train at 94km/hr on what was touted as the "newly opened High Speed Rail" link between Zhanjiang and Maoming. How's that doing now? Is it any closer to the main grid yet? Running slow trains on sections of line like this is good for train running times and track maintenance. But what will happen to the slow traffic when a full HSR schedule starts running?
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 10:44 AM   #11307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
What makes you think they were only farming?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The area was a rural outpost...
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Agricultural families are traditionally big, and China already had over 900 million people when Deng Xiaopeng announced economic reforms in the late 1970s. At the time, over 80% of the population lived in rural areas, so a sprinkle of a couple tens of thousands is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
In the grand scheme of things, just a thousand towns of couple tens of thousands sprinkled around China would be tens of millions of people taken together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The area was a rural outpost, and not a major urban centre.
The area was countryside sprinkled with small urban centres.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
The key urban focal point at the time was Guangzhou, which had developed into a major trading centre between the West and China for hundreds of years prior to modern Shenzhen's creation by Deng Xiaopeng.
Yes. Guangzhou was the biggest urban centre - 150 km away.
Did the towns of Nantou and Shenzhen function as centres of trade, services and transportation for surrounding villages?
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 05:34 PM   #11308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes. Guangzhou was the biggest urban centre - 150 km away.
Did the towns of Nantou and Shenzhen function as centres of trade, services and transportation for surrounding villages?
Nothing significant. Period.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 05:49 PM   #11309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Nothing significant. Period.
Insignificant like this:
https://encounteringurbanization.fil...6/picture3.png

Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren
I travelled on a slow speed train at 94km/hr on what was touted as the "newly opened High Speed Rail" link between Zhanjiang and Maoming.
Another problem with Chinese slow speed rail. All they have for single track unelectrified lines is diesel locomotives.
In my area, a single track unelectrified line first built in 1870 still means DMU service, top speed 120 km/h for most stretches.
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Old February 2nd, 2017, 05:57 PM   #11310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
You don't know much about Chinese history. Look up Beijing a few hundred years before and Shanghai a few decades before. Those are what we consider significant.

This link contained the photo you showed, which you did not source : https://encounteringurbanization.wor...-instant-city/

The text included :

Since the establishment of the Special Economic Zone in the late 1970’s, Shenzhen has seen unprecedented growth from a village of 30,000 to a city of over 325 times that.

A village. That's what that was.
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Old February 4th, 2017, 12:57 AM   #11311
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Guangzhu Intercity Railway orders CRH6F

The start of "Metroization" of the Guangzhu Intercity Railway.



Source

Picture Source
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Old February 4th, 2017, 09:35 AM   #11312
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How many stations exist in 116 km between Guangzhou and Zhuhai?
I see reported 15:
  1. Bijiang 5
  2. Beijiao 11
  3. Shunde 15
  4. Shunde College 23
  5. Ronggui 32
  6. Nantou 37
  7. Xiaolan 45
  8. Dongsheng 52
  9. Zhongshan North 64
  10. Zhongshan 70
  11. Nanlang 83
  12. Zhuhai North 93
  13. Tangjiawan 97
  14. Mingzhu 109
  15. Qianshan 113
Also, for some reasons Cuiheng has not been completed.
How well are these served?
Edit: finding some data
  1. Guangzhou-Bijiang 6/day
  2. Guangzhou-Beijiao 6/day
  3. Guangzhou-Shunde 37/day
  4. Guangzhou-Shunde College 5/day
  5. Guangzhou-Ronggui 39/day
  6. Guangzhou-Nantou 10/day
  7. Guangzhou-Xiaolan 58/day
  8. Guangzhou-Dongsheng 4/day
  9. Guangzhou-Zhongshan North 35/day
  10. Guangzhou-Zhongshan 12/day, of which 4 are long haul
  11. Guangzhou-Nanlang 5/day
  12. Guangzhou-Zhuhai North 4/day
  13. Guangzhou-Tangjiawan 8/day
  14. Guangzhou-Mingzhu 16/day
  15. Guangzhou-Qianshan 3/day
  16. Guangzhou-Zhuhai 43/day, of which 4 are long haul

Last edited by chornedsnorkack; February 4th, 2017 at 11:12 AM.
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Old February 5th, 2017, 08:20 PM   #11313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
Well, yes, in a manner of speaking. The old line was single track, with passing loops at wayside stations. The new line is double-track, also with passing loops at Lufeng and Guangtong. We don't have any useful information whether it is slow speed (160km/hr), or maybe a true HSR (250 or 350km/hr) that's just waiting for a.) the connection to the main lines east at Kunming South station that happened just a month ago, and b.) The connection thru the suburbs of Kunming between Anning and Kunming South.



From my visual experience the high speed rail line between Kunming and Dali is still u/c, thereby by deduction the current "new" double track cannot be true high speed rail.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 12:10 AM   #11314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You don't know much about Chinese history. Look up Beijing a few hundred years before and Shanghai a few decades before. Those are what we consider significant.
Um? Both were the largest cities of China.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
This link contained the photo you showed, which you did not source : https://encounteringurbanization.wor...-instant-city/

The text included
Yes. Thatīs why. The text distracts from the obvious evidence of the photo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
:

Since the establishment of the Special Economic Zone in the late 1970’s, Shenzhen has seen unprecedented growth from a village of 30,000 to a city of over 325 times that.

A village. That's what that was.
Manifestly false.
Huaxi had 2000 people once upon a time, and then it was a village in truth. Even though Huaxi has not been administratively reclassified into anything else now that 50 000 immigrants live there, it is no longer a village in the main meaning of the word - any more than Yuzovka was.

Look again at the picture of Shenzhen in 1970. A lot of multistorey buildings that are obviously not single family residences. Thatīs an urban centre, not a rural area or "village".
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Old February 6th, 2017, 12:54 AM   #11315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Um? Both were the largest cities of China.

Yes. Thatīs why. The text distracts from the obvious evidence of the photo.
Pretty sure its just a stock photo of Shenzhen. We have no way of telling when it was taken. Considering 5 years makes a big difference in Shenzhen any guesswork based on this image is pure speculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Manifestly false.
Huaxi had 2000 people once upon a time, and then it was a village in truth. Even though Huaxi has not been administratively reclassified into anything else now that 50 000 immigrants live there, it is no longer a village in the main meaning of the word - any more than Yuzovka was.

Look again at the picture of Shenzhen in 1970. A lot of multistorey buildings that are obviously not single family residences. Thatīs an urban centre, not a rural area or "village".
Steering this a bit closer to on topic. The point is (and everyone seems to get it) railways play a much less pronounced role in determining where large settlements and population congregate in China so there is really no urgency to provide these rural local services when there are much greater priorities in the development of the rail network. Also it is not like there are no plans to get suburban rail in the old lines. I have seen plans to put more local services on old main lines and the existing/future ICRs are gradually becoming more S-bahn like.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 05:12 AM   #11316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Um? Both were the largest cities of China.

Yes. Thatīs why. The text distracts from the obvious evidence of the photo.

Manifestly false.
Huaxi had 2000 people once upon a time, and then it was a village in truth. Even though Huaxi has not been administratively reclassified into anything else now that 50 000 immigrants live there, it is no longer a village in the main meaning of the word - any more than Yuzovka was.

Look again at the picture of Shenzhen in 1970. A lot of multistorey buildings that are obviously not single family residences. Thatīs an urban centre, not a rural area or "village".
You obviously don't understand how people live in China. A cluster of multistory buildings does not make a city. In the West, there are more defined legal structures such as incorporation that can make this distinction. In the Chinese context, this part of China was never a "city" by any means. Hence, the text caption in your source is entirely correct.

What part of the world would use such flimsy visual evidence to classify urban and rural areas?

I hope you realize that tall structures existed in ancient China. Clusters of them. They included temples and pagodas. The "multistorey" buildings in that photo are not highrises anyway.
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Old February 6th, 2017, 11:34 AM   #11317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
  1. Bijiang 5
  2. Beijiao 11
  3. Shunde 15
  4. Shunde College 23
  5. Ronggui 32
  6. Nantou 37
  7. Xiaolan 45
  8. Dongsheng 52
  9. Zhongshan North 64
  1. Guangzhou-Bijiang 6/day
  2. Guangzhou-Beijiao 6/day
  3. Guangzhou-Shunde 37/day
  4. Guangzhou-Shunde College 5/day
  5. Guangzhou-Ronggui 39/day
  6. Guangzhou-Nantou 10/day
  7. Guangzhou-Xiaolan 58/day
  8. Guangzhou-Dongsheng 4/day
  9. Guangzhou-Zhongshan North 35/day
The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
What does Dongsheng Station look like?
For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?
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Old February 7th, 2017, 03:39 AM   #11318
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
What does Dongsheng Station look like?
For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?
You can not compare a century old mixed use rail line on the East Bank with a recently constructed commuter orientated line on the West Bank of the Pearl River. The train traffic patterns are completely different and can not be compared. Also both are just small pieces of a larger Pearl River Delta network. You can not compare these rail lines in isolation.

The East Bank has many more lines in total compared to the Western side, when you consider all High Speed Rail, Conventional Rail and Metro lines. Plus more are being constructed.

Guangzhou East to Dongguan Line is today running near capacity with a mix of High Speed trains, freight services and conventional passenger trains. It is why there have been many projects built or planned to handle the commuter needs of this side of the river.

Dongguan also is not a single urban centre, rather than a collection of cities. So the new commuter services are serving new urban areas that the old Canton Railway was never able to serve. That said, there have been some rejuvenation of other parts of the old Canton Railway with former stations being reused in commuter roles, just not yet in Dongguan.

Before the Guangzhou-Zhuhai Intercity Railway was built recently, there was no passenger rail services, just a freight line to serve that side of the river.

Once the Dongguan Metro is fully operational, it will link with both the Shenzhen and Guangzhou Metro systems, meaning more services than anything on the Western side of the river. That is with including the new high speed lines and other planned services.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 03:54 AM   #11319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The distance Guangzhou East-Dongguan is also 64 km, just like Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North.
Over the 64 km distance Guangzhou South-Zhongshan North, there are 3 stations that receive 37+ trains per day: Shunde, Ronggui and Xiaolan.
Between them, there are also 5 stations that receive 4-10 trains per day: Bijiang, Beijiao, Shunde College, Nantou and Dongsheng.
These stations at least do receive those 4-10 trains per day, rather than be altogether abandoned.
What does Dongsheng Station look like?
For contrast, I could not find any trains stopping anywhere in the 64 km distance between Guangzhou East and Dongguan.
The eastern bank of Pearl River is more populous and developed than west bank. Why then is it so ill served compared to Guangzhou-Zhuhai railway?
The Guangshen Railway has a private railway operator. Given the limited track capacity and that they have a monopoly on rail travel in the east bank, the company most likely deduced that the most profitable service is a intercity express service as opposed to a local service. That will probably change when the Guangzhou-Dongguan-Shenzhen ICR opens, offering another competing link between the cities the Guangshen Railway serves. This may force the Guangshen Railway to adapt its service to changing market conditions.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 10:17 AM   #11320
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You can not compare a century old mixed use rail line on the East Bank with a recently constructed commuter orientated line on the West Bank of the Pearl River. The train traffic patterns are completely different and can not be compared. Also both are just small pieces of a larger Pearl River Delta network. You can not compare these rail lines in isolation.

The East Bank has many more lines in total compared to the Western side, when you consider all High Speed Rail, Conventional Rail and Metro lines.
List the other East Bank lines, then.
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