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Old February 11th, 2017, 02:36 AM   #11341
saiho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But no commuter trains.
The local cities seem more content to build parallel subways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
By which time people will have had to make do without for how many years?
Well retrofitting the Guangshen line would take just as long. Its more than just dusting off a few old stations and bringing more trains.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
China has obviously failed to do the obvious.
What is obvious is to serve areas with no rail transit what so ever. While costs are still low. The cost effective option to "metrotize" the national rail lines will always exist. The option to build new corridors cost effectively will disappear one day. China is not looking for cost effective they are looking for maximum benefit. Prioritize the things you can build for the future over things you can build in the future. Look at Taiwan and most of South Korea they built subways first then upgraded their national rail lines for more local commuter service.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Wrong order of costs.
The cost of building a surface railway through a green field is relatively cheap. The cost of cutting a surface railway through a built up area is much more expensive.
The cost of digging a subway is expensive even under a green field. Digging a subway under a built up area is even more costly than digging under a green field, but not so much relative difference, because digging the subway is so expensive to begin with.
I mean greenfield as in new rail corridors regardless of urban or rural setting. Upgrading the Guangshen would be a brownfield project as the corridor exists and there are constraints imposed by the existing rail infrastructure and operations. You can be petty and argue what the different definitions greenfield are but this is the definition I used. Like you and I have just said subways are expensive so lets build them now while we can.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But they do not today exist.
And there are some people on old line. They should be served, but are not.
EVERYONE SHOULD BE SERVED!!! With limited time capacity and budgets some will be served first. Judging that the Guangshen already serves the major centers along the line perhaps other places with no transit at all should get the treatment too.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What happened to people who built houses in, oh, 2007, based on the Shanghai Transrapid extension?
Well people who did that got a HSR Station, Airport and SHM Lines 2, 10 and 17. Seems like they are doing fine.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The construction plans 10 years ahead are heavily subject to changes of plans. Physically present lines are somewhat more reliable.
Somewhat more reliable? Look at the developed metro systems in China. The corridors planned to be served by transit ended up being served one way or another.

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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Surface railways are not just "nostalgic".
They are, for one, quick, cheap and cost effective for many purposes. And for another, in many places already in place.
Look right across border to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong, in 1979, had 34 km of single track, unelectrified surface railway with 7 stations.
What did Hong Kong do?
Hong Kong built 134 km of completely new subways, serving concentrations of people not served by existing rail.
But Hong Kong did not abandon surface railway or its stations.
Rather, Hong Kong electrified and double tracked those 34 km. And added 6 new stations to the existing 7. And also built a new, 7 km long Lok Ma Chau line which is a branch of Kowloon-Canton railway.
And the East Rail continues to also carry long distance trains.
By all means, construct all new urban transit line. But this should not be exclusive of upgrading the existing lines and adding infill stations - let alone failure of public service to any existing station.
China did not abandon its surface railway either. It electrified and quad-tracked it in the 90s. But they also realized that the line is 150km long connecting several cities not several suburbs so a frequent regional express service was offered on top of the large amount of freight and long distance traffic it carries. This line is fundamentally different from the East Rail line which only sees a handful of long distance and freight trains each day.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:53 AM   #11342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
But no commuter trains.
The Guangshen Railway does run C type Intercity Commuter trains, the same as the Zhuhai Railway.

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By which time people will have had to make do without for how many years?
Just as I had to make do on the Western side of the Pearl River before 2011 when I wanted to travel. Bus was the only option for travelling from Macau to Guangzhou, yet on the Eastern side, I could catch a train from HK/Shenzhen.

All the projects could not all be built all at once and opened at the same time. The disruption to people would be too great and would prove too costly. There is a also a desire to stagger such projects to allow for a seamless transfer of a experienced workforce to move from project to project, ensuring quality construction. Instead of a labour shortage and a heavy desire to cut corners if there is a urge to rush or attempt too much at once.

Quote:
China has obviously failed to do the obvious.
How can you possibly argue this? China has the most well documented and observed investment of in rail infrastructure. Compared to most other countries, China gets on with the job and produces results. In a single decade, it has gone from zero to hero, creating the largest high speed network the world has ever seen.

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Wrong order of costs.
The cost of building a surface railway through a green field is relatively cheap. The cost of cutting a surface railway through a built up area is much more expensive.
The cost of digging a subway is expensive even under a green field. Digging a subway under a built up area is even more costly than digging under a green field, but not so much relative difference, because digging the subway is so expensive to begin with.
The very reason you want the Guangshen Railway to be upgraded and opened up more for commuter service, it is the reason why it can not. This is a mixed used railway, serving the "Factory of the World" meaning that it is at capacity with long distance conventional trains, high speed commuter services and freight to serve all of these factories. Without a major change of one of these factors, it will be impossible to increase services on another.

For example, the Hong Kong end of the original Canton Railway as you described was transformed into a double tracked commuter railway but could only do so without removing through freight from this sector. While the dense commuter rail use prevents the use of higher speed express services being introduced on the East Rail line. While the Guangshen Railway section of the old Canton Railway was upgraded to a quad track railway, the Hong Kong section is constrained and limited to only be double tracked. The Guangshen Railway cannot keep adding more tracks to it's section, just as the HK end can not simply add a third or fourth trackn in its urban environment.

Quote:
But they do not today exist.
And there are some people on old line. They should be served, but are not.
You can only work within the limitations that you are faced with. You can not serve the people when there is no capacity to upgrade or improve services to them. However, it is clearly obvious that there is a clear and demonstrated desire to improve the situation.

As with the situation at Pinghu showed, with a change in the freight usage and movements in that area, the station could be renovated and reopened to passenger traffic. Factories are closing, moving to other areas or changing they ways they operate, impacting on the way the Guangshen Railway can be utilised. Other areas are becoming gentrified and new urban residential cores are being developed. As the new projects come online, they can see a change in commuter rail and allowing for extra capacity of the Guangshen Railway. These changes are needed before the reopening of the old stations.

Quote:
What happened to people who built houses in, oh, 2007, based on the Shanghai Transrapid extension?

The construction plans 10 years ahead are heavily subject to changes of plans. Physically present lines are somewhat more reliable.
Physically present lines are also more constrained, rather than a new line which can have a completely fresh approach. There are arguments both ways. Renovating an existing line is often not always more reliable, maybe due to landspace constraints, heritage issues, neighbouring residential concerns, maintaining current use and hidden infrastructure that can cause engineering headaches and cost blowouts (such as unknown gas lines, electricity cables or finding excessive fatigue in bridges or structures). There are plenty of examples of renovation works where the costs have climbed astronomically because the original work has since changed to complete dismantling and full reconstruction of a site because of unknown or unforeseen issues.

Quote:
Surface railways are not just "nostalgic".
They are, for one, quick, cheap and cost effective for many purposes. And for another, in many places already in place.
Look right across border to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong, in 1979, had 34 km of single track, unelectrified surface railway with 7 stations.
What did Hong Kong do?
Hong Kong built 134 km of completely new subways, serving concentrations of people not served by existing rail.

But Hong Kong did not abandon surface railway or its stations.
Rather, Hong Kong electrified and double tracked those 34 km. And added 6 new stations to the existing 7. And also built a new, 7 km long Lok Ma Chau line which is a branch of Kowloon-Canton railway.
And the East Rail continues to also carry long distance trains.
By all means, construct all new urban transit line. But this should not be exclusive of upgrading the existing lines and adding infill stations - let alone failure of public service to any existing station.
Meanwhile Hong Kong has abandoned nearly all freight rail usage except to the abattoir and the border rail yard. and has abandoned the port freight facilities. Hong Kong could afford to do this as it could rely on rail freight traffic to continue to arrive in neighbouring Shenzhen on the Guangshen Railway and being transshipped to road vehicles into HK. While the priority on the mainland was to embrace freight over passenger rail while the Pearl River Delta developed into industrial powerhouse it has become. If it had not done so, then the cities you are arguing that need commuter rail services would never have developed to what they are today.

The past 50 years of Hong Kong's commuter rail planning & development has seen many disappointments too, with projects abandoned or delayed (where is the Kwu Tung infill station or the Northern Link). However this can hardly be compared to the rail development across the broader Pearl River Delta that has seen explosive growth with most projects proposed, planned, constructed and completed within the past decade. Shenzhen and Guangzhou has already built twice the length of the Hong Kong MTR with hundreds of more kilometres planned or under construction. Even Dongguan's Metro will soon be of nearly equal size to Hong Kong's and it has only been under construction for a few years.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 07:01 AM   #11343
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You can't compare amount of track newly built vs. Hong Kong to say they are ahead. Guangzhou and Shenzhen are far larger cities and they have a grossly inadequate rail network, so they are catching up. They also sprawl out more so the lines have to go further. There have just been 2 extension/new line openings in Hong Kong and the shovels are in the ground for another big line that will eventually cross the harbour from the suburbs.

The other key aspect that hasn't been brought up yet is the role of river transport for cargo in the delta. Freight doesn't need to always go on trains or on the backs of trucks.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #11344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
Look at Taiwan and most of South Korea they built subways first then upgraded their national rail lines for more local commuter service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saiho View Post
But they also realized that the line is 150km long connecting several cities not several suburbs so a frequent regional express service was offered on top of the large amount of freight and long distance traffic it carries.
Taiwan also built subways - but the local commuter services were never abandoned.
Taiwan Trunk Line is 400 km long and connects several cities. But it also connects several suburbs. Like, in the first 39 km, Taibei to Zhongli, the stations are:
  1. Wanhua
  2. Banqiao
  3. Fuzhou
  4. Shulin
  5. Shanjia
  6. Yingge
  7. Taoyuan
  8. Neili
All of them receive commuter service. But how many of them are stops for every regional express to Hsinchu?
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Old February 12th, 2017, 12:12 AM   #11345
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
But I wouldn't conclude that there were no local services. China as country isn't very open. There could very well be services whose timetables are hard to come by for non-Chinese.
As has been pointed out, those are freight stations, but China is open enough. The timetables for all scheduled passenger services can be found online at a number of sites, in English. Non-scheduled services is a totally different matter.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 12:20 AM   #11346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Another problem with Chinese slow speed rail. All they have for single track unelectrified lines is diesel locomotives.
In my area, a single track unelectrified line first built in 1870 still means DMU service, top speed 120 km/h for most stretches.
Last steam was 2001? on Jinglong Pass. The top speed of 120km/hr is the permissible safety limit on nearly all non-HSR coaches, regardless of what loco is pulling them on what track.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 10:54 AM   #11347
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The top speed of 120km/hr is the permissible safety limit on nearly all non-HSR coaches, regardless of what loco is pulling them on what track.
Yes.
Does China have any Diesel Multiple Units?
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Old February 12th, 2017, 02:42 PM   #11348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes.
Does China have any Diesel Multiple Units?
NDJ3 on Beijing suburban railway comes to mind. Any others?
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Old February 12th, 2017, 05:47 PM   #11349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
As has been pointed out, those are freight stations, but China is open enough. The timetables for all scheduled passenger services can be found online at a number of sites, in English. Non-scheduled services is a totally different matter.
If they were mere freight stations they wouldn't have platforms and their track layout would look completely different. It rather looks as if these stations along the classic Guangshen Line have been closed to passenger services just a few years ago. Which raises the question whether these closures are permanent or temporary.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #11350
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Tunnel boring starts next month for the Wangjing Tunnel on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170210/50674492_0.shtml
http://travel.cnr.cn/list/20170210/t...23582889.shtml

An 8-km tunnel will be built on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line to connect with Beijing's Main railway station. The Wangjing HSR tunnel, will start near the Xinghuo railway station on the outskirt of Beijing, connecting the main station in the city center. This will be the first underground HSR tunnel passing through a city center in China.





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Old February 12th, 2017, 11:43 PM   #11351
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What will be the max speed in the tunnel?
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Old February 13th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #11352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
Tunnel boring starts next month for the Wangjing Tunnel on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170210/50674492_0.shtml
http://travel.cnr.cn/list/20170210/t...23582889.shtml

An 8-km tunnel will be built on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line to connect with Beijing's Main railway station. The Wangjing HSR tunnel, will start near the Xinghuo railway station on the outskirt of Beijing, connecting the main station in the city center. This will be the first underground HSR tunnel passing through a city center in China.
Is the railway between Shenzhen North and Futian Stations under a city centre?
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Old February 15th, 2017, 02:48 PM   #11353
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Is the railway between Shenzhen North and Futian Stations under a city centre?
I was thinking the same thing, plus the new tunnel built recently between Beijing and Beijing West stations, I am sure that is capable of handling high speed traffic.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 07:37 PM   #11354
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Documentray: Amazing Bullet Train

(English subtitles)

1.



2.



3.



4.



5.

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Old February 18th, 2017, 03:58 AM   #11355
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Thanks for sharing. They look very interesting..
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Old February 20th, 2017, 03:33 PM   #11356
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Bullet trains run on Tunli Bridge in Nanning, capital of south China's Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region

















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Old February 21st, 2017, 01:15 PM   #11357
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Are you sure that's a rail intersection?

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Old February 23rd, 2017, 12:15 PM   #11358
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I think it's Nanjing, in Jiangsu Province. Beijing-Shanghai and Chengdu-Shanghai PDL.

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Old February 23rd, 2017, 11:40 PM   #11359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
Tunnel boring starts next month for the Wangjing Tunnel on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170210/50674492_0.shtml
http://travel.cnr.cn/list/20170210/t...23582889.shtml

An 8-km tunnel will be built on the Beijing - Shenyang HSR line to connect with Beijing's Main railway station.
Two years ago I saw part of a tunnelling machine like that hanging from a crane over a similar trench in the western suburbs of Kunming. At the time I thought the HSR propaganda posted all over the blue tin fence was just smokescreen, and maybe they were drilling one of the metro lines. Later I realised that they had some (8?) km to go under the old main station and down the east side of the lake to the new Kunming South station to connect the mythical Dali-Lijiang HSR line. I haven't seen any news lately how that's going...
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Old February 24th, 2017, 12:06 AM   #11360
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Greetings. Just noticed that map. Does anyone know the progress of the Nantong-Shanghai bridge over the river?
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