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Old May 3rd, 2017, 05:55 AM   #11441
xinxingren
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccdk View Post
The rails, welds and QC must be somewhat higher grade than for slow tracks. I saw 500 metre lengths of rail for the Xining-Golmud 160km/hr upgrade. A trainload of them stacked up on standard flat-wagons going down Guanjiao Pass. In 31km of track there are 9 curves of over 180 degrees at 300 metres radius. Those rails just went round like they were cooked noodles...
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Old May 3rd, 2017, 03:30 PM   #11442
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Guanjiao pass

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Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
The rails, welds and QC must be somewhat higher grade than for slow tracks. I saw 500 metre lengths of rail for the Xining-Golmud 160km/hr upgrade. A trainload of them stacked up on standard flat-wagons going down Guanjiao Pass. In 31km of track there are 9 curves of over 180 degrees at 300 metres radius. Those rails just went round like they were cooked noodles...
Yep, now I think that spiral loop is gone as there is a new Guanjiao tunnel (32km)

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Old May 3rd, 2017, 08:50 PM   #11443
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Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
All the stories I've been reading say the big city interchanges will be HSR,Intercity and Metro, and the migrant workers will all ride the HSR, making their own connections somewhere out in the countryside to/from slow trains, minibuses etc.
Why would they?
Many would. But 2 problems:
  1. Slow trains are still cheaper and more comfortable than HSR. With enough time and convenient schedule, many migrant workers would still choose slow train.
  2. Slow train/HSR interchanges are remarkably rare in Chinese HSR network. Since connecting to HSR is difficult, many passengers would ride slow train all the way.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 04:01 AM   #11444
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While this article about the vehicles themselves is interesting, I am curious about the HSR Beijing-Shenyang line being built to a higher standard to allow this faster running.

Quote:
Trains capable of 400 km/h to run in 2020
Shenzhen Daily
4th May 2017


CHINA is working on next-generation bullet trains with a maximum operational speed of 400 kilometers per hour that will be ready by 2020 for markets linked to the Belt and Road Initiative’s vision, the country’s top railway vehicle maker said.

“We will apply new materials in the research and production of the future high-speed trains, such as carbon fiber and aluminum alloy, which will help reduce weight and enhance energy efficiency,” said Qiao Feng, a senior engineer at the CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., a subsidiary of China Railway Rolling Stock Corp.

The new trains will be available in Belt and Road Initiative markets, and will be able to reduce per passenger energy consumption by 10 percent compared with high-speed trains that can run 350 km/h. The CRRC will be the manufacturer and exporter, according to Qiao.

Once available, by around 2020, the new trains are expected to promote regional connectivity and create new business for China and overseas economies through the Belt and Road Initiative, Qiao added.

Feng Hao, a rail transportation researcher at the National Development and Reform Commission, said that the 400 km/h high-speed train project would help many heavily populated countries change their commuter transportation from a long dependence on automobiles.

“Because many markets along the Belt and Road Initiative, especially in Central Asia, Southeast Asia, the Middle East and Eastern Europe countries, are planning to build high-speed rail lines or to upgrade their existing systems, they are eager to gain technological support from China to assist in daily operations, maintenance and staff training.”

China will test the new bullet train alongside a portion of the Beijing-Shenyang high-speed railway line, Qiao said. The test railway line is to be completed by 2019.

Liu Youmei, an academician at the Chinese Academy of Engineering, said it is still not cost-effective to run a high-speed train at 400 km/h domestically because elements such as bearings, electric contacts and track must be replaced more often.

But, he said, with new railway lines and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem.

In the past decade, China has built the world’s largest high-speed rail network and become a leader in offering high-speed train products and services. The country has passenger train services running at operational speeds of 200 to 250 km/h and currently has the technology to produce trains with a top speed of 350 km/h, according to the National Railway Administration.

Qiao said that once the project is completed and with improvements in technologies and equipment, China can also adopt the new technology at home. (China Daily)
Sadly the article immediately below this one was about a blast in a railway tunnel killing 12 workers in Guizhou. The Qishanyan Railway was tunnelling near Liulong township in Dafang county, which necessitated passing through a coal seam. It is suspected that gases from the coal seam ignited, causing the blast and delaying any rescue until 14 hours later.

Last edited by Short; May 5th, 2017 at 04:09 AM.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 04:21 AM   #11445
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I think it fair to say the Chinese ought to start running everything at 350kph before even thinking about 400kph.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 04:46 AM   #11446
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I think the 400kph trains will be better bespoke for that speed than the 350kph were at this speed.

Quote:
“We will apply new materials in the research and production of the future high-speed trains, such as carbon fiber and aluminum alloy, which will help reduce weight and enhance energy efficiency,” said Qiao Feng, a senior engineer at the CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles Co., a subsidiary of China Railway Rolling Stock Corp.
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Old May 5th, 2017, 08:12 AM   #11447
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Originally Posted by luacstjh98 View Post
I think it fair to say the Chinese ought to start running everything at 350kph before even thinking about 400kph.
It was suggested that the reason for the speed reduction was not technical (software/human issue).

Running at 400km/h + will be a technical challenge.

"But, he said, with new railway lines and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem."
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Old May 8th, 2017, 12:44 PM   #11448
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Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
It was suggested that the reason for the speed reduction was not technical (software/human issue).

Running at 400km/h + will be a technical challenge.

"But, he said, with new railway lines and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem."
I think it somewhat got to do with technical which manifest into cost increase to run the train at 400kph +. First is the amount of wears incur on the equipment and infrastructure which would be in much faster rate. Then, at certain speed the power needed to overcome the friction begin to increase exponentially in altogether contribute the unjustifiable increment of operating cost.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 03:35 AM   #11449
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China Railway CRH2A-2001, Xinzhuang by Howard Pulling, on Flickr
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Old May 13th, 2017, 02:30 AM   #11450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
Running at 400km/h + will be a technical challenge.

"But, he said, with new railway lines and lower costs for parts and service, it will not be a problem."
I assumed the 420km/hr tests run in July 2016 Zhengzhou-Xuzhou must have been for some serious purpose, not just to say "we did it". The only report I have to hand says they were regular scheduled operational trains, doesn't say, but maybe implies, carrying farepaying pax?
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Old May 18th, 2017, 07:54 PM   #11451
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I would love to see at least a video of this run.
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Old May 18th, 2017, 11:23 PM   #11452
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Why would they?

Many would. But 2 problems:
  1. Slow trains are still cheaper and more comfortable than HSR. With enough time and convenient schedule, many migrant workers would still choose slow train.
  2. Slow train/HSR interchanges are remarkably rare in Chinese HSR network. Since connecting to HSR is difficult, many passengers would ride slow train all the way.


Not quite sure how slow trains are more comfortable.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 03:15 AM   #11453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dekechemist View Post
I think it somewhat got to do with technical which manifest into cost increase to run the train at 400kph +. First is the amount of wears incur on the equipment and infrastructure which would be in much faster rate. Then, at certain speed the power needed to overcome the friction begin to increase exponentially in altogether contribute the unjustifiable increment of operating cost.
The initial slow down (after the Wenzhou incident) applies to all the trains not just the fastest ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xinxingren View Post
I assumed the 420km/hr tests run in July 2016 Zhengzhou-Xuzhou must have been for some serious purpose, not just to say "we did it". The only report I have to hand says they were regular scheduled operational trains, doesn't say, but maybe implies, carrying farepaying pax?

I think the 380km/h max operational trains are capable of 400 km/h+ but outside the "safety factor" and/or not feasible. The article suggests there are a few upgrades before the 400km/h+ services are commercially viable.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 12:54 PM   #11454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyridgeline View Post
The initial slow down (after the Wenzhou incident) applies to all the trains not just the fastest ones.
...
"Everyone" believes that, but it does not mean it's true. I will with my bad English. Sorry

Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou:

Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways, his successor announced in April a change in policy on HS: the fastest routes will be cut from 350 kph (220 mph) to 300 kph (190 mph) as of July 1, 2011, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after, an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.

Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and problems with the new CRH380A trains.
July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.

In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line to 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.

After the accident the maximum speed of 350 km/h was not reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (the 16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were CRH380A to factory to make changes, since continued to fail.

Sources (in English, although the entrance is in Spanish: Alta velocidad ferroviaria en China)
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Old May 19th, 2017, 06:43 PM   #11455
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Not quite sure how slow trains are more comfortable.
Because sleeper cabins are available at much lower price than the few HSR sleepers, and on many routes where HSR sleeper would not make sense for time reasons anyway.
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Old May 19th, 2017, 08:33 PM   #11456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
"Everyone" believes that, but it does not mean it's true. I will with my bad English. Sorry

Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou:

Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption ...

Sources (in English, although the entrance is in Spanish: Alta velocidad ferroviaria en China)
"Corruption" and/or speed did not killed those people. It was human decisions/errors that killed them. They were incompetent in managing the high-speed rail system.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 04:30 AM   #11457
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Because sleeper cabins are available at much lower price than the few HSR sleepers, and on many routes where HSR sleeper would not make sense for time reasons anyway.
I think you meant "affordable". High speed trains are more comfortable because they are more silent and have less vibration in spite of being faster.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 09:14 AM   #11458
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I think you meant "affordable". High speed trains are more comfortable because they are more silent and have less vibration in spite of being faster.
But sitting up in a high speed train is less comfortable than lying down in a slow speed one.
For example, for Changsha-Guangzhou, the first train, G6011, departs Changsha only at 7:00, and arrives at Guangzhou North 9:26, Guangzhou South 9:51. Then add the time to navigate Guangzhou to your actual destination/workplace...

For comparison, there are 10 slow trains arriving at Guangzhou between 4:02 and 7:51, having departed Changsha between 19:51 and 23:04. And further 6 slow trains arrive in Guangzhou or Guangzhou East between 8:16 and 9:22, having departed Changsha between 23:44 and 1:46.

You cannot get to work in a morning by HSR from any long distance because most HSR lines only open at 7:00. And even if they did open earlier, you´d have to get up early and arrive tired.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 10:03 AM   #11459
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I think that's about a sleeper giving you a full night's sleep is always more comfortable than one where you enter late at night or arrive before dawn. It's no fun staggering out of the train groggy and cold five in the morning and nothing is open, not even transport.

There is one solution, remember it was used in Norway. The train from Oslo left something like 23:00 and arrived the city of Bergen something like 7:00 in the morning, which was pretty good by sleeper standards. In theory you could get close to eight hours sleep, though in practice it would be more like six hours. And at seven in the morning the city is marginally awake, the transport network is at full, some cafes and stores are open. It's still less than ideal though.

So they let you enter the train at 21:00 and leave at 8:00. That gave you up to 11 hours. Plenty time to unpack and pack, and to unwind, maybe a stay at the restaurant car (ensuring more income), read, talk and relax, and still get a full night sleep. You could also order a breakfast at the station restaurant next morning.

For whatever reason they stopped, while still providing sleeper service. The disadvantage would be that the train would stand still for three hours, providing no income (except for the restaurant car). That was not such a big issue, as the sleeper cars had no use at daytime, and as there is much less train traffic at night there were no shortage of platforms either.

I'm not sure how many routes that would be applicable in China though. Beijing-Guangzhou is already about 10 hours, already long enough, while Beijing-Shanghai or Beijing-Harbin would be too short. That would primarily be interesting for end-to-end journeys of 6-8 hours (or a bit shorter, if there are train sets to spare).

Letting people sleep for up to an hour after arrival could be beneficial for many though, including those who got on after the initial station.
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Old May 20th, 2017, 10:15 AM   #11460
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For long distance trains arriving at Tangxi, Guangzhou or Guangzhou East - what could be a good target time period to arrive in morning, so that people can navigate Guangzhou transit and report to their actual workplace around Pearl River Delta?
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