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Old October 7th, 2017, 09:15 PM   #11781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
October 6, 2017
China pays a high price for world's fastest train
Breakneck pace of railway expansion leads to mountain of debt
Nikkei Asian Review Excerpt

The "Fuxing" (rejuvenation) high-speed train service between Beijing and Shanghai returned to operating at 350kph on Sept. 21. For six years, it had been limited to 300kph following a crash in 2011 when two high-speed trains collided, killing 40 people and injuring about 200.

More : https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Eco...-fastest-train
No! When the Wenzhou crash happened the speed had already been lowered. IIRC it was due to a policy change after a corruption scandal.
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Old October 8th, 2017, 12:50 AM   #11782
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If debt is invested in infrastructure like HSR then China (or anyone else for that matter) should have more such debt.

Last edited by Pansori; October 8th, 2017 at 02:01 AM.
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Old October 8th, 2017, 01:34 AM   #11783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
No! When the Wenzhou crash happened the speed had already been lowered. IIRC it was due to a policy change after a corruption scandal.
Yes, i remember that it was a corruption issue. So it took 6 years to repair the corruption damages? Wow. In that case it was much more than a single case....
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Old October 8th, 2017, 07:17 AM   #11784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metrancya View Post
Yes, i remember that it was a corruption issue. So it took 6 years to repair the corruption damages? Wow. In that case it was much more than a single case....
Like what?
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Old October 8th, 2017, 08:07 AM   #11785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metrancya View Post
Yes, i remember that it was a corruption issue. So it took 6 years to repair the corruption damages? Wow. In that case it was much more than a single case....
Well, the implication was that the speed of 350 km/h had been unjustified and too expensive in the first place...
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Old October 8th, 2017, 12:12 PM   #11786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
"Everyone" believes that, but it does not mean it's true. I will with my bad English. Sorry

Reducing the maximum speed in China and (null) regarding the accident of Wenzhou:

Following the resignation (February 2011) for corruption of former Minister of Railways, his successor announced in April a change in policy on HS: the fastest routes will be cut from 350 kph (220 mph) to 300 kph (190 mph) as of July 1, 2011, and the rest of PDL from 250 to 200. The reasons given were: reducing energy consumption, lowering prices to fill the trains and for safety !!. Shortly after, an "adjunct" nuance the words of his boss: the speed reduction would be only on lines with low occupancy and "of course" had nothing to do with security.

Meanwhile, on June 30, the Beijing-Shanghai line was inaugurated. It is the only projected to 380 km/h, but after many problems during testing was commissioned in 300, announcing the 350 "before year end" and 380 "some time later". In July presented problems of signaling and problems with the new CRH380A trains.
July 1 became effective speed reduction on lines with low occupancy.
23 of the same month the accident Wenzhou. In this accident he had nothing to do speed, so they have told: there was a storm, the first train (CRH1B # 46) stopped by a failure in a substation, signals broke down, it was getting dark ... and the second train ( the CRH2E No. 139, both entitled to 250 km/h) hit the first train.

In that vein, the SE Coastal PDL, full speed before July 1 was 250, and at that time was reduced, so the accident occurred in a limited line to 200 km/h. I do not know how fast the scope occurred, although it would not be too high: they derailed the last 2 and the first 4 cars; the problem is that it was on a viaduct and 3 of them fell into the void.

After the accident the maximum speed of 350 km/h was not reduced immediately, but in stages: during August fell at least between Beijing and Tianjin (the 16), Shanghai-Hangzhou and Wuhan-Guangzhou (the 28). Also in August, but nothing seems to indicate a relationship, all trains were CRH380A to factory to make changes, since continued to fail.
Sources:
«China's former Railways Minister Liu Zhijun receives suspended death sentence for bribery and corruption The Independent».
«China slows down showcase bullet trains Bloomberg April 13, 2011».
«World's longest high-speed train to decelerate a bit People Daily April 15, 2011».
«The Backlash Is Brewing Against Chinese High-Speed Rail: Here's Why It's In Trouble Business Insider April 17, 2011».
«China slows down showcase bullet trains Bloomberg Businessweek April 17, 2011».
«China not slowing high-speed rail construction Chinadaily.com.cn June 7, 2011».
«China train crash: officials blame signal flaw Reuters 28 Jul 2011».


@ chornedsnorkack
I ask again:

What what is the distance traveled by the fastest trains between Beijingnan and Shanghai Hongqiao?
In the wikipedia in English it put (until a few days ago) 1302,890 km, now: 1302 and in Chinese 1318 km.
where can you look?

Thanks in advance!
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Old October 8th, 2017, 11:13 PM   #11787
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Old October 9th, 2017, 04:39 PM   #11788
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Old October 10th, 2017, 12:54 AM   #11789
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Bullet train runs among fields in SW China

A bullet train runs among fields in Rongjiang County, southwest China's Guizhou Province, Oct. 9, 2017. (Xinhua/Wang Bingzhen)

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Old October 10th, 2017, 08:14 PM   #11790
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Beijing-Shanghai bullet train: World's most profitable high-speed rail

July 20, 2016 15:23 IST

http://www.rediff.com/business/repor...l/20160720.htm


The Beijing–Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co., Ltd. was in charge of construction. The project was expected to cost 220 billion yuan (about $32 billion).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijin...-Speed_Railway

The Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway covers more than 1,300 km within five hours.

The Beijing-Shanghai bullet train has made a profit of nearly $1 billion, raking rare financial gains compared to China's other high-speed trains most of whom reportedly run on losses.

The Beijing and Shanghai high speed train reported net profits of 6.58 billion yuan ($982 million) for 2015, a shareholder document showed.

Known as the "the world's most profitable high-speed rail," the Beijing-Shanghai high-speed railway covers more than 1,300 km within five hours.

It transported 130 million passengers in 2015, with the profit per customer coming to around 50 yuan.

It has become a part of preferred mode of travel for millions of foreign tourists visiting China to experience the bullet train journey.

With tickets priced around $80, it has forced the airlines to drastically cut the airfares.

Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co. has never disclosed its earnings before.

Its 2015 figures were made public after a shareholder released a document on Monday, revealing the firm's profit data.

A bond prospectus released by Tianjin Railway Construction Co., a shareholder of Beijing-Shanghai High-Speed Railway Co., showed that the total assets of the company amounted to 181.54 billion yuan (about $30 billion) at the end of last year, with the total liabilities standing at 50.37 billion yuan, (about $8.5 billion).

In 2015, the gross revenue of the company was 23.42 billion yuan, and its total operating costs hit 16.74 billion yuan, state-run Xinhua news agency reported.

Although the railway authority has said that the Beijing- Shanghai high-speed railway was the only profitable high-speed rail in China in the past five years, some believe that other lines in densely-populated and developed regions will likely become profitable soon.

China has about 16,000 kms of high speed train tracks connecting most of its top cities.

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Last edited by lawdefender; October 12th, 2017 at 10:03 AM.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 08:19 AM   #11791
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Seat Reservation Possible from Today on C, D, G trains
C、D、G字头动车今起可网上选座 仅提供相邻座关系选择
http://society.people.com.cn/n1/2017...-29581886.html



 人民网北京10月12日电 中国铁路客户服务中心12306网站12日公示了一则《接续换乘和选座功能使用说明》。《说明》称,12306支持C、D、G字头的动车组列车选座,但此功能仅提供相邻座位关系选择。如剩余车票不能满足需求,或不选择座席关系直接点击“确定”,系统将自动分配席位。

据此前报道,2016年12月1日起,铁路客票系统网上购票“选座功能”在海南环岛高铁开始试行,旅客可选“ABCDF”五个位置,其中A、F靠窗,C、D靠过道。不过系统提示,选座后如果系统票额不足,系统将随机为旅客申请席位。

此外,12306此次还推出接续换乘服务,即旅客在没有符合出行需求的车票时,可使用接续换乘功能,查询途中换乘一次的部分列车余票情况。

《接续换乘和选座功能使用说明》

一、如何选座

系统支持C、D、G字头的动车组列车选座,此功能仅为您提供相邻座位关系选择,如果剩余车票不能满足需求,系统将为您自动分配席位。

如不选择座席关系,直接点击“确定”,系统将自动为您分配席位。

二、换乘接续功能

1.如何选择接续换乘服务

在没有符合出行需求的车票时,您可使用接续换乘功能,查询途中换乘一次的部分列车余票情况。

2.如何查询

旅客可使用接续换乘查询途中换乘一次的部分列车余票情况。

3.如何预订

选定合适的车次后,点击“预订”系统将再次进行提示,选择对应车次所需席别及对应乘车人等信息后提交订单,后续按系统提示完成支付即可。

4. 温馨提示:

(1)系统展示途中换乘一次的部分列车余票信息,购票时请您充分考虑各种影响换乘的因素,并自愿承担因自身或第三方等原因导致延误换乘的风险,请您根据实际情况,选择是否购票,购票后合理安排时间,及时换乘。

(2)遇有旅客列车晚点,或其中一段停运等铁路原因影响接续换乘的,退票时按规定不收取退票费。













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Last edited by ccdk; October 12th, 2017 at 08:30 AM.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 10:28 AM   #11792
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Quote:
October 6, 2017
China pays a high price for world's fastest train
Breakneck pace of railway expansion leads to mountain of debt
Nikkei Asian Review Excerpt
Min Yan, PhD from University of Chicago:
Quote:
If Chinese railway system is a stand alone company, then the company will likely go bankrupt. This is what happened to Taiwan high speed rail, which is now controlled by the Taiwan government. Debt is certainly an important concern of Chinese railway. I think it is only rational for Chinese railway to gradually raise the price. This help the debt problem but only by very little.

However, debt is the wrong angle to look at Chinese railway. The right angle is infrastructure, comparable to highway, internet, mobile, etc. For example, since the three major mobile operators in China are all state owned, the government can mandate them to set up motile transmission towers in the most remote place in the country. This makes it possible for private companies such as Alibaba to develop their e-commerce business. The government loses money on the mobile towers themselves, but get much bigger return from the economic activities these towers generate.

The high quality railway makes people travel more, spend more, makes lots of private business possible. More importantly, it is much more environmentally friendly than cars. If China does not spend on railway, it still needs to spend a lot on highway. In fact, Chinese highway system is also expanding rapidly, many done by private companies (highway tolls are quite expensive). Even so, railway is necessary.


On the other hand...
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdefender View Post
Beijing-Shanghai bullet train: World's most profitable high-speed rail

July 20, 2016 15:23 IST
...
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Old October 12th, 2017, 04:34 PM   #11793
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Another benefit of Chinese high speed rail I failed to mention is the development of the relevant industry. China will make a lot of money in overseas (not just high speed) railway business.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 06:33 PM   #11794
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I think the problem is with the speed of development and how to finance the interest payments on such a huge amount of debt. The downstream economic impact and benefits to other industries won't be sent back upstream to pay the bank. While the government can offer guarantees and force the state-owned banks not to rain on them, can fares alone fund the shortfall?
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Old October 12th, 2017, 07:03 PM   #11795
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I think it's instructive to look at the way the Shinkansen--and the Japanese rail system as a whole--was financed. (NB: This is all just from quick Wikipedia searches and my prior understanding of the situation)

Post-war, railway development was taken up by the big national railway company, JNR, and while given directives by the national government, JNR was not given limitless access to government funding. Eventually, the debt became too much to bear, and JNR was broken up and privatized in the late '80's.

The Japanese National Railway Settlement Corporation (JNRSC) was set up during the dissolution specifically to take on most of the financial liabilities of JNR. This organization was eventually superseded by the Japan Railway Construction, Transport and Technology Agency (JRTT), who continue to service that debt.

However, we also know that the Japanese public debt is owed primarily to the Japanese--as a population, they (have) extensively bought Japanese bonds, for a host of reasons. This is why the Japanese public debt is enormous, but also not necessarily a problem: Japanese public debt is largely owed to the Japanese public, though it will likely become a problem as Japan's population declines more precipitously. The debt created by Japan's railway system is part of this, and because bonds are not quickly-traded/maturing assets, it really is an appropriate way to finance these kinds of long-term investments, even if the debt created will have to be dealt with eventually.

I tend to think that China's railway system is in the same way. China began its railway development fairly early on in the course of larger national economic development, and considering how nationalistic the Chinese people have been made to be--to say nothing of the totally different way in which a (nominally) communist country can control domestic assets--I don't foresee the debt created by China's railway system being particularly problematic, barring some truly traumatic shock to its economy. Considering China's demographic trajectory, it will be a concern, but again, eventually.

Meanwhile, both China and Japan will continue to benefit from their investments in infrastructure for decades to come--maybe even longer. As hkskyline points out, the only real puzzle is to figure out how to internalize these positive externalities, so that railway debt can be paid down without becoming a problem. But I tend to think that's more of a public policy issue than an economic one.
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Old October 12th, 2017, 11:59 PM   #11796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Min Yan, PhD from University of Chicago:
Quote:
If China does not spend on railway, it still needs to spend a lot on highway. In fact, Chinese highway system is also expanding rapidly, many done by private companies (highway tolls are quite expensive).
China Megastructure-2 Ep.1-Roads on YouTube shows a Chinese environmental engineer (from time 27'30") spelling out that if car ownership rates in China rose to equal that of USA, there isn't enough petrol on the planet to supply them. So the money sunk in railways is money that isn't going to oil companies.
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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:21 AM   #11797
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What currency is the 'debt' denominated in?
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Old October 13th, 2017, 01:48 PM   #11798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gusiluz View Post
Min Yan, PhD from University of Chicago:




On the other hand...

The Beijing-Shanghai line makes boatloads of money, but I think it's far from enough to offset the less profitable lines CRH are building in the rural areas, of which there are a lot...
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Old October 14th, 2017, 07:00 PM   #11799
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Originally Posted by luacstjh98 View Post
The Beijing-Shanghai line makes boatloads of money, but I think it's far from enough to offset the less profitable lines CRH are building in the rural areas, of which there are a lot...
The point is do not expect to make money on high speed rail alone. The expectation is to lose money on high speed rail and gain from the other benefits of the high speed rail. Of course the “accounting” is complicated.

A simpler analogue is the subway. Again it is almost impossible to maintain subway, let along make money. However, the subway increases the land value in many Chinese cities, and the government gains by the higher land price.
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Old October 15th, 2017, 09:42 PM   #11800
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Worker on the HSR construction site 60 meters up in the air
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20171015/52641325_0.shtml#p=1

















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