daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 20th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #11821
Gusiluz
Jaén (Spain)
 
Gusiluz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 6,603
Likes (Received): 10936

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norge78 View Post
Any news about the Jinan - Shijiazhuang HSR?
The last thing I have pointed out is that they will be inaugurated in December.
323 km at 250 km/h.
It will complete the HSR between Qingdao and Taiyuan.
__________________

Norge78, Zaz965 liked this post
Gusiluz no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 23rd, 2017, 03:46 AM   #11822
BEE2
Registered User
 
BEE2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 222
Likes (Received): 152

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
The 'debt' of China's HSR is as much of a problem as the government decides it is. The debt was planned with the idea that it would bring wider benefits to the country and the economy. And it obviously has. There are no signs that things are not going to the plan or that something is changing in government's view to the HSR. Therefore talking about HSR debt from the accountancy point of view and trying to highlight it as some sort of problem while ignoring the wider implications of HSR is superficial and indeed absolutely useless.



May I say: HSR to China today is what highway systems to USA in 1960s??
__________________

FM 2258, Norge78 liked this post
BEE2 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2017, 01:25 PM   #11823
lookback718
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 21
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
They're operating at a loss overall, while state subsidies keep the company in the black. There have been some questions on whether they should have built expensive lines into sparsely-populated areas such as the northwest, where the stations are far from town and building a new city around them won't likely materialize.
Lanzhou - Xinjiang HSR cost is offset by the long term strategic benefits of the line such as the ability to move security forces quickly.

It also is a linchpin role in moving people and thus enterprise in isolated western area's, which is crucial for the Belt and Road Initiative, the success of which is an utmost strategic goal.

I imagine Chengdu - Lhasa will be seen similarly.
lookback718 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2017, 05:47 PM   #11824
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

Quote:
Originally Posted by lookback718 View Post
Lanzhou - Xinjiang HSR cost is offset by the long term strategic benefits of the line such as the ability to move security forces quickly.

It also is a linchpin role in moving people and thus enterprise in isolated western area's, which is crucial for the Belt and Road Initiative, the success of which is an utmost strategic goal.

I imagine Chengdu - Lhasa will be seen similarly.
It's silly to use that line for military purposes. By the time the troops arrive from Lanzhou to Urumqi, which takes almost 12 hours, the rebellion would have finished.

To really achieve the Belt and Road effect, the line has to go into Central Asia, not just to Urumqi.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2017, 01:08 AM   #11825
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Your assumption is based on the government not changing its focus on the HSR, and the banks tolerating the large debt load. Both are incorrect. You never know how the central government thinks. We have seen how they no longer supported the property sector, which was a darling like the HSR, and the subsequent consequences/defaults.

That is a simplistic view of the future. The government is now in the midst of its party congress in Beijing to figure out the next stage of development. That's a testament that things will change.

Besides, the financiers and the railway company are now publicly-listed companies, partially accountable to shareholders and not closely-held by government. It is definitely not a left pocket cancel right pocket scenario that you simplistically outline.

Do you have a recent example where China propped up an ailing behemoth for the purposes of the public good for the sake of wider implications on the economy?
Comparing transport infrastructure projects with real estate is something that no person with education higher than primary should ever do.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2017, 05:05 AM   #11826
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Comparing transport infrastructure projects with real estate is something that no person with education higher than primary should ever do.
Why not? Both sectors were strongly backed by government policy. How well aware are you of China's 5-year plans and developmental methods over the past decade? Obviously little.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 01:52 AM   #11827
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Why not? Both sectors were strongly backed by government policy. How well aware are you of China's 5-year plans and developmental methods over the past decade? Obviously little.
Unlike some of us I do have enough clue about it not to make such absurd comparisons.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 06:30 AM   #11828
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Unlike some of us I do have enough clue about it not to make such absurd comparisons.
Give details. Saying it doesn't mean you know anything. If your assumption is yesterday's policy will hold for perpetuity then why are they having the congress meetings and drafting 5-year plans in Beijing? Prove that you know how China is governed.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 07:04 AM   #11829
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

WeChat Pay takes on Alipay in train ticket mobile payments
October 25, 2017
South China Morning Post Excerpt

The turf war between China’s two biggest mobile payments providers has moved to a new frontier: trains.

From November, passengers will be able to buy their train tickets using Tencent’s WeChat Pay on the official booking website, 12306.cn and its mobile app, according to China Railway, the national operator.

The move breaks the four-year dominance of Alipay over mobile payments in China’s multibillion-dollar train ticket booking market. Alipay is owned by Alibaba, which also owns the South China Morning Post.

Official data shows the country’s railways carried 2.814 billion passengers in 2016, up 11 per cent from the previous year.

Alipay has been accepted on China’s main train ticket sales website since 2013. Although many of the nation’s major banks also offer mobile payment services for train tickets, the vast majority of passengers favour Alipay.

China Railway said the addition of WeChat Pay will “further diversify payment methods for train ticket purchases.”

WeChat Pay is embedded in China’s dominant messaging app, WeChat, which boasts almost a billion users.
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!

Norge78, Zaz965 liked this post
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 12:26 PM   #11830
gowallstmichael
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 48
Likes (Received): 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Why not? Both sectors were strongly backed by government policy. How well aware are you of China's 5-year plans and developmental methods over the past decade? Obviously little.
Real estate——private sector
HSR——public sector

Real estate——"Houses are built for living in rather than speculation"(by Wang Menghui,the minister of ministry of housing and urban-rural development of China)
HSR——"To build more than 11,000 km new HSR"(China's thirteenth 5-year plan)

I really don't know how you could say "both these two sectors are strongly backed by government policy".
gowallstmichael no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 01:53 PM   #11831
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

Quote:
Originally Posted by gowallstmichael View Post
Real estate——private sector
HSR——public sector

Real estate——"Houses are built for living in rather than speculation"(by Wang Menghui,the minister of ministry of housing and urban-rural development of China)
HSR——"To build more than 11,000 km new HSR"(China's thirteenth 5-year plan)

I really don't know how you could say "both these two sectors are strongly backed by government policy".
Real estate development is fuelled by local governments building their way to growth. Until several years ago, governments were obliged to meet certain growth targets. Everyone was focused to bring national economic growth above 7%. Through issuing municipal bonds, they were able to fundraise to build. So it is incorrect to say real estate is not closely-tied to the public sector and public policy.

Talk on not speculating real estate only materialized in this party congress - 2017. That wasn't the case before when the real estate sector boomed. In fact, that 7% benchmark was only quietly dropped recently as well, now with the slogan that China moves to the next stage of development.

Also keep in mind these property developers borrow money, most likely from state-owned banks as well, so where is the line between the public and private sector? Would the government not care because the company is private even though its funding and customers are on the public side? The line is cloudy, much like a lot of things in China.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/19/news...ult/index.html

So will the government shield the HSR debt load? I don't think it's a perpetual or solid guarantee. Is it easier to deal with a state-owned bank failure(s) instead?
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 02:30 PM   #11832
Norge78
Registered User
 
Norge78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 471
Likes (Received): 388

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
There was indeed a crisis years ago after the Wenzhou disaster, the resulting speed reduction, and then the reorganization of the railway companies. Today's problems are with debt load, and how to handle the debt / interest repayments. Different problems.
No.

You predicted a looming debt crisis in the railway sector years ago and wasn't related to the wenzhou collision..

Anyway IF you have detailed informations, please share them with us..

Challenges ahead for China’s high-speed rail plans

High-speed rail is an integral element of China’s “Belt and Road Initiative”.
But turning proposals into reality has been difficult and authorities need to appreciate that what applies on the mainland does not necessarily work in another country.
Beijing’s ambition to bring high-speed rail travel to the world has been much-stated and vaunted. The idea is high on the agendas of officials during overseas trips and many nations are only too eager to embrace the technology. Yet for all the interest shown and deals signed, turning proposals into reality has been challenging. Authorities on both sides need to appreciate that what applies on the mainland does not necessarily work in another country.
High-speed rail is an integral element of China’s “Belt and Road Initiative”. Chinese companies will benefit through providing infrastructure, trains and equipment, and the links will ensure fast movement of people and freight. But China, despite being a model for the technology through having more high-speed track than all other countries combined, has stiff competition from nations including Japan, France, Germany and Spain. Being able to build lines at a far lower cost does not guarantee success, as the awarding by India of a contract to a Japanese firm recently showed.
The firm won the deal because it was willing to transfer its technology, offered a more generous loan and could boast a 100 per cent safety record; in half a century of operation, there have been no deaths or injuries on Japanese high-speed trains. But even when agreements are signed, environmental impact studies, land acquisition problems and politics can get in the way. There have been numerous setbacks to construction of lines in Thailand from Bangkok to the province of Nakhon Ratchasima and Indonesia from Jakarta to Bandung in West Java, with respective projected completion dates of 2021 and 2019 unlikely to be met. That could mean cost overruns, renegotiation of terms and further delays. Deals in Mexico and Venezuela that seemed assured fell through.
China’s biggest overseas high-speed success story has been in Turkey with a line from Ankara to Istanbul and more tracks being built. But a high-profile project, such as that proposed between Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, is needed for Beijing to showcase its skills to the world. High-speed rail is expensive, particularly for developing countries, but that is only part of the challenge for China.

http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-...eed-rail-plans

Last edited by Norge78; October 25th, 2017 at 02:43 PM.
Norge78 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 25th, 2017, 08:34 PM   #11833
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norge78 View Post
No.

You predicted a looming debt crisis in the railway sector years ago and wasn't related to the wenzhou collision..

Anyway IF you have detailed informations, please share them with us..

Challenges ahead for China’s high-speed rail plans

High-speed rail is an integral element of China’s “Belt and Road Initiative”.
But turning proposals into reality has been difficult and authorities need to appreciate that what applies on the mainland does not necessarily work in another country.
Beijing’s ambition to bring high-speed rail travel to the world has been much-stated and vaunted. The idea is high on the agendas of officials during overseas trips and many nations are only too eager to embrace the technology. Yet for all the interest shown and deals signed, turning proposals into reality has been challenging. Authorities on both sides need to appreciate that what applies on the mainland does not necessarily work in another country.
High-speed rail is an integral element of China’s “Belt and Road Initiative”. Chinese companies will benefit through providing infrastructure, trains and equipment, and the links will ensure fast movement of people and freight. But China, despite being a model for the technology through having more high-speed track than all other countries combined, has stiff competition from nations including Japan, France, Germany and Spain. Being able to build lines at a far lower cost does not guarantee success, as the awarding by India of a contract to a Japanese firm recently showed.
The firm won the deal because it was willing to transfer its technology, offered a more generous loan and could boast a 100 per cent safety record; in half a century of operation, there have been no deaths or injuries on Japanese high-speed trains. But even when agreements are signed, environmental impact studies, land acquisition problems and politics can get in the way. There have been numerous setbacks to construction of lines in Thailand from Bangkok to the province of Nakhon Ratchasima and Indonesia from Jakarta to Bandung in West Java, with respective projected completion dates of 2021 and 2019 unlikely to be met. That could mean cost overruns, renegotiation of terms and further delays. Deals in Mexico and Venezuela that seemed assured fell through.
China’s biggest overseas high-speed success story has been in Turkey with a line from Ankara to Istanbul and more tracks being built. But a high-profile project, such as that proposed between Singapore and Kuala Lumpur, is needed for Beijing to showcase its skills to the world. High-speed rail is expensive, particularly for developing countries, but that is only part of the challenge for China.

http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-...eed-rail-plans
The above is selling HSR technology abroad, which is a separate issue altogether than building HSR at home. In fact, international sales still account for a small part of the overall business, and the borrowings to fund these projects don't go on the firm's balance sheet / debt load.

The government has began reforms of the rail sector, such as raising ticket prices to more viable levels. They have recognized already the status quo or expansion on borrowed money is probably not going to be a good long-term solution.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...etwork-by-2020

Also, the 2 railway firms were also squabbling with each other over prices so to pretty up their balance sheets / income statements :

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2017-08-22/101133938.html

There have also been plans to introduce private sector investment into the railways to ease the burden on the state.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/econo...e-rail-company

Non-transport subsidiaries of the CRC are in the midst of being reformed :

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/busine...t_31082631.htm

So while the superficial headlines call for growth and expansion under the generic One Belt One Road Initiative, behind the scenes, there is plenty happening to reduce the government's exposure, and I believe it is just the beginning. If you read the recent stock exchange filings, the latest financials have taken a turn for the worse.
__________________

Zaz965 liked this post
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2017, 01:02 AM   #11834
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Give details. Saying it doesn't mean you know anything. If your assumption is yesterday's policy will hold for perpetuity then why are they having the congress meetings and drafting 5-year plans in Beijing? Prove that you know how China is governed.
This is not about governing China. This is about secondary-level education.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 26th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #11835
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18222

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
This is not about governing China. This is about secondary-level education.
You haven't presented any facts or evidence to back up your thoughts. Seems you need to head back to school yourself.
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2017, 09:38 PM   #11836
KavirajG
Global Trekker
 
KavirajG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Quatres Bornes, Mauritius
Posts: 1,248
Likes (Received): 1820

__________________

Pansori, Munwon, CP11, RonnieR, Zaz965 and 1 others liked this post
KavirajG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 27th, 2017, 10:06 PM   #11837
Pansori
planquadrat
 
Pansori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: London - Vilnius
Posts: 9,973
Likes (Received): 6911

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
You haven't presented any facts or evidence to back up your thoughts. Seems you need to head back to school yourself.
I'm not the one posting absurd comparisons though.
Pansori no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2017, 06:03 PM   #11838
ScientisT.bass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 12
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEE2 View Post


May I say: HSR to China today is what highway systems to USA in 1960s??

100%!
ScientisT.bass no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 28th, 2017, 06:13 PM   #11839
ScientisT.bass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 12
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
It's silly to use that line for military purposes. By the time the troops arrive from Lanzhou to Urumqi, which takes almost 12 hours, the rebellion would have finished.

To really achieve the Belt and Road effect, the line has to go into Central Asia, not just to Urumqi.
The military and strategic thinking PLUS the real willingness for a high speed network covering the whole Asia are among the reasons. Military reasons are not silly at all. What other type of transport do you prefer? It is high volume high speed, just perfect. It is not the main reason but it is definitely not silly either.

The line shows China is serious about high speed link with Europe. It makes Moscow-Beijing a possibility and makes China part of the line almost complete.

It makes Urumqi a much attractive place for millions. Easy transport is very important for obvious reasons.

Actually this line demonstrates perfectly that the spending is public spending
ScientisT.bass no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 29th, 2017, 08:46 AM   #11840
ccdk
Registered User
 
ccdk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 337
Likes (Received): 981

China testing unmanned high speed trains

__________________

RonnieR, Zaz965 liked this post
ccdk no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
china, high speed rail

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium