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Old February 2nd, 2010, 10:55 PM   #1201
foxmulder
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Hangzhou East looks really nice. It has smt I cannot describe. It looks organic. I am please with open layouts, natural lighting, nice parks around the stations. I will definitely use high speed rails instead of air travel.
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Old February 2nd, 2010, 11:22 PM   #1202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
Hangzhou East looks really nice. It has smt I cannot describe. It looks organic. I am please with open layouts, natural lighting, nice parks around the stations. I will definitely use high speed rails instead of air travel.
Hmm, I'm really not sure about the idea of parks around railway stations. Railway stations are not somewhere you hang about purposelessly but just a place you pass through quickly. Preferably it needs to blend in with the urban environment without the intrusion of street-level motorways, and a human distance between the nearest shop/office and platform is key. There's nothing wrong with public spaces if there are street-level shops and restaurants to give the spaces some purposes. Apart from the well designed shops street-level density needs to be that of the City of London (and even Canary Wharf), which doesn't seem to be the case of the areas surrounding East Hangzhou.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 12:52 AM   #1203
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Substancially increased access journey distance, huge walking distances on the square, and from the 'Great Hall' onto the platforms. This is how it should be?

Rail travel should be about walk to the station (or a 10-minute metro journey from most core parts of the city) and jump onto the train.

- Some people just cannot digest new developments.

No, some authorities just cannot plan developments properly.
Being unaware of the reason the station was planned like this is not a good reason to call the Chinese developers incompetent. They are surely better prepared than you to judge what's ideal, they know what are the issues to solve, etc. For one, I guess ample space is needed for cases like the Chinese New Year, or service interruptions, and many other situations.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 01:12 AM   #1204
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Being unaware of the reason the station was planned like this is not a good reason to call the Chinese developers incompetent. They are surely better prepared than you to judge what's ideal, they know what are the issues to solve, etc. For one, I guess ample space is needed for cases like the Chinese New Year, or service interruptions, and many other situations.
An appeal to authority argument = no argument.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 01:53 AM   #1205
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Not quite a typical appeal to authority fallacy though is it?

Its not even an appeal, its positing reasonable doubt of a previous appeal (yours).

Appeal to authority as a fallacy means the authority figure is not someone who would necessarily know. Such as "Boats are bad for your health, Oprah Winfrey said so". Appealing to qualified authorities is actually quite a logical thing to do in life. Otherwise academics wouldn't spend so long qualifying themselves to be one. That said, it wasn't even an appeal, it was reasonable to doubt accepting your version of reality on your authority based on the likelihood of more qualified alternative authorities pre-existing.

So, unless anyone can provide some research, then neither party has the logical moral high ground, but one party is being particularly obtuse.

Last edited by makita09; February 3rd, 2010 at 02:01 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 03:01 AM   #1206
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Very nice rail ports. Keep in mind, they are not metro stations that serve neighborhoods. They serve entire metropolitan areas and beyond. Travelers arrive and leave by metros, buses, taxis, and private cars. I say, build them big, nice, and with room for future expansions. Gotta love high speed rail. Too bad, I am in California. We'll never get this kind of service.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 05:16 AM   #1207
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On the map, I cannot distinguish lines that are designed for 350km/hr. I think he drew all lines over 200km/h in bold.


by the way, guys don't feed the troll. he has an obsession with Chinese hsr and especially with stations. he has been writing same stuff in all chr related threads. At first I thought he was sincerely expressing his idea but now it is apparent he is not. Repeated same tings over and over, just a troll.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:29 AM   #1208
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Fair enough.

Yeah I find the map hard to understand as well. It seems the colours are chosen at random.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:31 AM   #1209
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As good as the stations are, it'd be nice to see something different to the generic station layout China is using.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 10:59 AM   #1210
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fort bonifacio office space

The construction was so impressive. I'm amazed with the design. Great project!!!
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 12:00 PM   #1211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
Hmm, I'm really not sure about the idea of parks around railway stations. Railway stations are not somewhere you hang about purposelessly but just a place you pass through quickly. Preferably it needs to blend in with the urban environment without the intrusion of street-level motorways, and a human distance between the nearest shop/office and platform is key. There's nothing wrong with public spaces if there are street-level shops and restaurants to give the spaces some purposes. Apart from the well designed shops street-level density needs to be that of the City of London (and even Canary Wharf), which doesn't seem to be the case of the areas surrounding East Hangzhou.
but we are talking about China. it's way too different with UK or other European countries, you can't pass through a station quickly.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 12:10 PM   #1212
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but we are talking about China. it's way too different with UK or other European countries, you can't pass through a station quickly.
The differences are almost entirely artificial and in perception. In terms of naturally evolving city layout and the need for inner-city redevelopment, there are far more similarities than some are prepared to admit.

Edit - sorry, thought I was responding to a different thread where I was particularly 'obtuse' about location selection.

More to the point, the fact that 'you can't pass through a station quickly' is not something to be proud of or should be accepted as the 'norm'. Railway competes against motoring and aviation in China as much as everywhere else. Sure the advantages of HSR are clear, but every time we make a compromise the adcantages get reduced, and likewise the overall advantages of HSR.

Last edited by NCT; February 3rd, 2010 at 12:15 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 02:19 PM   #1213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
On the map, I cannot distinguish lines that are designed for 350km/hr. I think he drew all lines over 200km/h in bold.


by the way, guys don't feed the troll. he has an obsession with Chinese hsr and especially with stations. he has been writing same stuff in all chr related threads. At first I thought he was sincerely expressing his idea but now it is apparent he is not. Repeated same tings over and over, just a troll.
I guess your vision of the forum is one of perpetual celebration. Using "troll" to designate anyone who voices concerns or criticisms, even if repeatedly, just makes that word meaningless. Seems to me he has a valid point, and, as Makita says, unless someone provides some detailed analysis and research, the issue is not really settled.

Frankly, your attempt to shut people up is by far more annoying than the so-called "trolls".

Last edited by Ariel74; February 3rd, 2010 at 03:28 PM.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 02:45 PM   #1214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
You are speaking of timetable, not map.
Actually, I thought of depicting the traffic frequency on the map. This would show the bottlenecks and such on the rail network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
G-series (long-haul 300+ km/h): 66; but will soon be 80 three days later; from both directions
C-series (intercity 300+ km/h): 128;
D-series (200+ km/h, but could be slower on upgraded lines): 567;
Does it mean 33 G trains in either direction?

It means roughly 2 trains per hour in daytime. Are those all on the new Wuguang line?

Are the C series train all on Beijing-Tianjin, or are some of them on Wuguang line?

Is Wuguang line now full? I hear that some G trains have to wait in Changsha station for 15 minutes just to let nonstop G trains pass, whereas picking up passengers from Changsha could be done in less than 5 minutes. Or is the number of G trains in service limited by the availability of trainsets and they can be added when trains get completed?
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 02:55 PM   #1215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Actually, I thought of depicting the traffic frequency on the map. This would show the bottlenecks and such on the rail network.
Yes I agree, train timetable maps are a regular feature of Route Utilisation Strategies in the UK, and are very useful. The common approach is to have one line per train per hour. And often there are two maps, the off-peak and the peak. And yes they get very complicated very quickly, so they are only done region by region rather than the whole network.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 03:43 PM   #1216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCT View Post
The differences are almost entirely artificial and in perception. In terms of naturally evolving city layout and the need for inner-city redevelopment, there are far more similarities than some are prepared to admit.

Edit - sorry, thought I was responding to a different thread where I was particularly 'obtuse' about location selection.

More to the point, the fact that 'you can't pass through a station quickly' is not something to be proud of or should be accepted as the 'norm'. Railway competes against motoring and aviation in China as much as everywhere else. Sure the advantages of HSR are clear, but every time we make a compromise the adcantages get reduced, and likewise the overall advantages of HSR.
I think Kelly's point was that it is difficult to pass through a station not because it is a CRH station, but because it is a station in china, where there are on average a LOT more people cramming through a train station than in Europe. I live in Frankfurt, which has one of the largest and busiest train stations on the continent. But it still feels empty compared to an average train station in China. The reason is simply that even a "small" city in China has many times more population than a "large" city in Europe. A train station in China is always crammed with people, hence is harder to pass through.

I don't know which is better: to cram through a relatively small station in the middle of the city and get pushed and shoved by smelly crowds, or to ride further out of town to a large, spacious station that is more pleasant, though not necessarily faster, to pass through.

The point is that there is inevitably a trade-off, given the condition of China.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 06:23 PM   #1217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Does it mean 33 G trains in either direction?

It means roughly 2 trains per hour in daytime. Are those all on the new Wuguang line?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Are the C series train all on Beijing-Tianjin, or are some of them on Wuguang line?
Currently all on Beijing-Tianjin. But Shanghai-Nanjing will open on May 1, 2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Is Wuguang line now full?
Wuguang is far from full. China does not have enough trains. The two train plants: Qingdao delivers six CRH2C trainsets a month, and Tangshan delivers eight CRH3C. This is not enough for catch up the speed of railway construction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
I hear that some G trains have to wait in Changsha station for 15 minutes just to let nonstop G trains pass, whereas picking up passengers from Changsha could be done in less than 5 minutes.
It had been cut to 9–11 minutes since the open of Guangzhou South, and not only in Changsha South, also in Miluo East and Chenzhou West. Check the timetable.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 07:33 PM   #1218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariel74 View Post
I think Kelly's point was that it is difficult to pass through a station not because it is a CRH station, but because it is a station in china, where there are on average a LOT more people cramming through a train station than in Europe. I live in Frankfurt, which has one of the largest and busiest train stations on the continent. But it still feels empty compared to an average train station in China. The reason is simply that even a "small" city in China has many times more population than a "large" city in Europe. A train station in China is always crammed with people, hence is harder to pass through.

I don't know which is better: to cram through a relatively small station in the middle of the city and get pushed and shoved by smelly crowds, or to ride further out of town to a large, spacious station that is more pleasant, though not necessarily faster, to pass through.

The point is that there is inevitably a trade-off, given the condition of China.
There are several reasons for this. The first one is archaic ticketing and complicated boarding procedures. Most tickets are bought at railway stations (even those purchased in advance). Ticket outlets do exist but they are relatively few and far between. Online-ticketing isn't even considered (of course there is a high risk of ticket touts when demand far outstrips supply in present-day China). There are no flexible tickets, and the procedure between entering the station and entering the train is pretty complex (can involve 2 checks, ticket and/or security). This means the average waiting time at stations is made unecessarily long.

These are problems which will gradually disappear as platform numbers in cities increase. Railway travel is fast becoming something other than 'what the peasants do', and infrastructure design must accommodate that. If you are investing in world-class 350km/h lines and rolling stock, it won't hurt much to go the whole way to make the stations better. Station capacity is still too low compared to the increase in line and network capacities. You don't solve this by building one massive station that'll still be overcrowded - you build a ring of half a dozen normal-sized stations in the inner city. You can easily have 50-100 platforms per city without any station being a nightmare to use.

In short, the problems with Chinese stations are not fundamentally due to the high population density (which is not astronomically different to European densities), but due to the inner workings of the current railway system.
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 08:04 PM   #1219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Yes.


It had been cut to 9–11 minutes since the open of Guangzhou South, and not only in Changsha South, also in Miluo East and Chenzhou West. Check the timetable.
In other words it's not a problem of line capacity, rather station capacity?
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Old February 3rd, 2010, 09:40 PM   #1220
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Wuguang is far from full. China does not have enough trains.
In which case it is natural that tickets are hard to get and too expensive for poor. Lowering the price would simply mean that the tickets are bought out by ticket dealers.

It remains to be seen what happens when more trains are completed and enter service. Can all people travel at reasonable prices?

And look at Tokaido Shinkansen on how to run a high-speed railway. There is, I think, a Nozomi train (4 intermediate stops, 2:26) each 10 minutes, and yet a Hikari train covers the same distance in just 3 hours, with 7 additional stops.
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