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Old February 4th, 2010, 03:24 PM   #1241
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I think we can assume that the new stations being built will become the main station for their relevant cities, displacing the current old stations. Given that in the UK we’re still using stations 170 years old and have no intention of replacing them soon, don’t worry too much about the stations being out of the centre. The city centre will move to where the stations are over the coming decades. Metro lines and other transport links are also needed, of course, but when you take the long view there’s nothing to worry about.
I'm not sure that's a favourable or even realistic outcome. The Chinese cities are built on social and cultural foundations stretching back centuries even millennia, and IMO moving the city centre away would be doing a disservice to such rich cultural heritage.

All European cities underwent stages of rapid industrial growth, and all of them had to decide where to put railway stations at some point. Building the St Pancrases, Paris Nords and the Terminis would be no less difficult than building inner-city stations in China today. Rebuilding of St Pancras, Cannon Street and Blackfriars, and the not-too-distant Euston (will) also pose(d) immense challenges. Railway stations not only did not destroy Europe's history, they became part of it. The City of London wouldn't be what it is today without the Liverpool Streets and London Bridges.

If anyone suggested, say Central London should move to Croydon, there'd be uproar.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #1242
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Is there no one know China have 1.3 billion people, and over 0.2 billion people will use the railway transportation system for journey in 15 days during the Spring Festival?


a huge railway station is necessary, absolutely!


Guangzhou Railway Station (2008 Spring Festival)

These 1,3 milliards of people do not live all in one city. Guangzhou has just 7,4 million people, scattered over 7800 square km.

How do the main stations of Tokaido Shinkansen compare?

All Shinkansens terminate in the old Tokyo Station, as do a lot of slow rail lines.

All Tokaido Shinkansen trains, even Nozomis, also stop at Shinagawa (less than 7 km from Tokyo Station) and in Shin-Yokohama (25 km from Tokyo). And yet the Nozomis manage the trip in 2:26. The Shin-Osaka station (initial terminus of Shinkansen) is about 3 km from old Osaka Station to avoid central Osaka.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 04:37 PM   #1243
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Guangzhou South doesn't just serve the people of GZ, it's the CRH hub for the entire Pearl Delta area with services going to and from every other parts of the country.
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Old February 4th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #1244
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
I'm not sure that's a favourable or even realistic outcome. The Chinese cities are built on social and cultural foundations stretching back centuries even millennia, and IMO moving the city centre away would be doing a disservice to such rich cultural heritage.

All European cities underwent stages of rapid industrial growth, and all of them had to decide where to put railway stations at some point. Building the St Pancrases, Paris Nords and the Terminis would be no less difficult than building inner-city stations in China today. Rebuilding of St Pancras, Cannon Street and Blackfriars, and the not-too-distant Euston (will) also pose(d) immense challenges. Railway stations not only did not destroy Europe's history, they became part of it. The City of London wouldn't be what it is today without the Liverpool Streets and London Bridges.

If anyone suggested, say Central London should move to Croydon, there'd be uproar.
our long winded genius apparently does not realize st. pancras station was built in a then developing/newly developed area.

cause... if the british planners had heeded his advice, st. pancras station would have been directly under the tower of london or something.

but... he doesn't need to actually provide supporting arguments or evidence.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #1245
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our long winded genius apparently does not realize st. pancras station was built in a then developing/newly developed area.

cause... if the british planners had heeded his advice, st. pancras station would have been directly under the tower of london or something.

but... he doesn't need to actually provide supporting arguments or evidence.
St Pancras was an area of slums. At the time the station was planned and constructed Kentish Town to the north was already urbanised and the West End well established, so there was already quite a degree of penetration into the urban area. Nevertheless the access traffic between the City and the 6 mainline stations caused real headache and it was only with the advent of the underground railways was this problem solved. Fairly quickly travel time from the mainline stations to the city on the Metropolitan Railways became manageable.

Guangzhou South on the other hand nowhere near even touches the urban core, and unless there are plans to build a StationExpress rail-link to the centre, a long access journey for business travellers will always remain a huge drawback. There will be some business located close to the station, but the overall centre of gravity generally does not shift.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #1246
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Guangzhou South doesn't just serve the people of GZ, it's the CRH hub for the entire Pearl Delta area with services going to and from every other parts of the country.
That's the problem - putting all the eggs in one basket.

Having one single something large will never be enough. The key is in having a few of them - Fuoshan, Dongguan, Zhongshan, even Shunde and Panyu should all have their own medium-sized stations.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #1247
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That's the problem - putting all the eggs in one basket.

Having one single something large will never be enough. The key is in having a few of them - Fuoshan, Dongguan, Zhongshan, even Shunde and Panyu should all have their own medium-sized stations.
Look at Shinkansen.

In Kanto Region, there are some 42 million people over 32 000 square km area.

After the three stops of Nozomi - Tokyo, Shinagawa, Shin-Yokohama - it goes nonstop to Nagoya.

On Tohoku and Joetsu Shinkansen, trains stop at Ueno Station (3,6 km) and Omiya Station (31,3 km).

Generally, do not look at what Europe did. The main stations and lines of Europe were put in place in 19th century. To the extent that TGV and AVE had new stations, the cities have not expanded much since 1980.s.

Japan, however, built Shinkansen in country where old railways had been there for a long time and cities were big and built up. How have the cities of Japan reacted to the presence of Shinkansen in the last 45 years?
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Old February 5th, 2010, 06:20 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
That's the problem - putting all the eggs in one basket.

Having one single something large will never be enough. The key is in having a few of them - Fuoshan, Dongguan, Zhongshan, even Shunde and Panyu should all have their own medium-sized stations.
You still cannot grasp the development in China. They are not going to stop building stations after the current development of these railway stations. In the future they will build even more stations for these cities as more population move into the cities. Some of the older stations can then be renovated to accommodate highspeed trains. Each of these cities now has more than one stations and will have more than one highspeed railway stations.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 06:23 AM   #1249
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Guangzhou South on the other hand nowhere near even touches the urban core, and unless there are plans to build a StationExpress rail-link to the centre, a long access journey for business travellers will always remain a huge drawback. There will be some business located close to the station, but the overall centre of gravity generally does not shift.
How do you know the center of gravity does not shift? The government has plans to develop the areas near the new station. Can't you understand at all?
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Old February 5th, 2010, 07:36 AM   #1250
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But unless the government is planning to neglect Tianhe and Yuexiu, those areas will continue to be important, and thus fast connections will be vital. A regional express system will be needed across the entire PRD region, which is what seems to be emerging.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 11:28 AM   #1251
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St Pancras was an area of slums. At the time the station was planned and constructed Kentish Town to the north was already urbanised and the West End well established, so there was already quite a degree of penetration into the urban area.

You do realise don't you that special effort was made for St Pancras because it was built a decade after Kings Cross and nearly 2 decades after Euston, which was built in open countryside at the time, along with Paddington.

You compare apples with oranges and then ignore reality. I cannot fathom the extent of your confusion of ideas.

Chinese stations are not perfect, city centre stations would be preferable but they are not practical to build, therefore they're not. Instead their open positioning is going to be used to generate new areas of growth.

I can't fault the Chinese on their rationality. Now excuse me whilst I go and argue with a brick wall using my forehead.

Last edited by makita09; February 5th, 2010 at 11:35 AM.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 02:39 PM   #1252
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I think it is a good idea to place the station outside of the city, with the enormous volumes of travelers that it will handle i think access is more important than location. Here they can hook up the station with motorways effectively connecting the station with the whole metropolitan area.
Rapid transit will ensure that no matter where you live in the metro area you will have easy access to the station, they for sure have thought about this during the planning phase.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #1253
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don't bother with NCT. it's not as if there's any shred of objectivity coming from him, ever.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 07:01 PM   #1254
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You do realise don't you that special effort was made for St Pancras because it was built a decade after Kings Cross and nearly 2 decades after Euston, which was built in open countryside at the time, along with Paddington.
Then the same logic can be used for Guangzhou South, for afterall Guangzhou (Central) and Guangzhou East were both built decades ago, and both at the time of building, on the then fairly remote sites. Surely the same 'special effort' should be made for Guangzhou South too? The Eurostar didn't just stop at Tilbury either.

Let's also not forget that Battersea and Nine Elms were both subsequently moved 'inland' to Victoria and Waterloo.

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You compare apples with oranges and then ignore reality. I cannot fathom the extent of your confusion of ideas.
There is a difference in stages of development that I don't deny. But let's put things into perspective. Railway building in the UK coincided well with urban expansion, whereas in the case of China there's a significant lag - urbanisation is well underway (if you see area and population figures of just 1 decade go) and at a very fast pace, and one shouldn't automatically assume that'll continue forever. Not forgetting the fact that there are already signs of deurbanisation (a few of my family and family friends in Shanghai have already bought retirement properties in smaller towns outside of Shanghai), the idea of a megatropolis with populations of 20 million + just doesn't go down well with the people, who at the end of the day, do value cleanliness and space.

To compare apples with apples one only needs to look at Beijing, which is one of the few Chinese cities with fairly good railway infrastructure. It's not hard to see it does have a London-style ring of terminals none of which too far from the centre.

At the end of the day a railway station here and a railway station there are both railway stations, which I'm sure you'll agree.

Quote:
Chinese stations are not perfect, city centre stations would be preferable but they are not practical to build, therefore they're not. Instead their open positioning is going to be used to generate new areas of growth.

I can't fault the Chinese on their rationality. Now excuse me whilst I go and argue with a brick wall using my forehead.
Don't get me wrong, having the railway built is infinitely better than not having it at all. As for the practicality argument, a long term view is surely needed? I've also argued on a number of occasions that inner-city development is relatively easy while opportunities now exist.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 09:04 PM   #1255
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You still cannot grasp the development in China. They are not going to stop building stations after the current development of these railway stations. In the future they will build even more stations for these cities as more population move into the cities. Some of the older stations can then be renovated to accommodate highspeed trains. Each of these cities now has more than one stations and will have more than one highspeed railway stations.
I hope you are right. Planning in China has become more sophisticated over the years and there's generally much better forward thinking. If more stations are to be built or expanded in these outer locations then I'd expect there to be at least be some sort of an initial plan now, but there isn't even anything on the grapevine yet. Past experiences also tell me that small to medium-sized towns and cities receiving a station for the first time also get them way out in the sticks (Nantong, Fuzhou for example). I don't think these are invalid concerns?
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Old February 5th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #1256
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I hope you are right. Planning in China has become more sophisticated over the years and there's generally much better forward thinking. If more stations are to be built or expanded in these outer locations then I'd expect there to be at least be some sort of an initial plan now, but there isn't even anything on the grapevine yet. Past experiences also tell me that small to medium-sized towns and cities receiving a station for the first time also get them way out in the sticks (Nantong, Fuzhou for example). I don't think these are invalid concerns?
Nantong and Fuzhou are small cities? As you may have forgotten, there are still a few hundred millions of people in China waiting to be urbanised in the next 30 years. You have a typical static mindset when you see China, which is so typical from the "Western" view regarding China. And yeah, China is not planning long term, that's why she has been growing like no other countries before in the last 30 years and it's the first major countries to come out of the current crisis.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 06:27 AM   #1257
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I hope you are right. Planning in China has become more sophisticated over the years and there's generally much better forward thinking. If more stations are to be built or expanded in these outer locations then I'd expect there to be at least be some sort of an initial plan now, but there isn't even anything on the grapevine yet. Past experiences also tell me that small to medium-sized towns and cities receiving a station for the first time also get them way out in the sticks (Nantong, Fuzhou for example). I don't think these are invalid concerns?
Are you kidding about Nantong and Fuzhou? Both of these prefectural level cities have a few million population. They may be small by Chinese standards, but way more populous than most British cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzhou
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Old February 6th, 2010, 10:25 AM   #1258
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Then the same logic can be used for Guangzhou South, for afterall Guangzhou (Central) and Guangzhou East were both built decades ago, and both at the time of building, on the then fairly remote sites. Surely the same 'special effort' should be made for Guangzhou South too? The Eurostar didn't just stop at Tilbury either.

Let's also not forget that Battersea and Nine Elms were both subsequently moved 'inland' to Victoria and Waterloo.



There is a difference in stages of development that I don't deny. But let's put things into perspective. Railway building in the UK coincided well with urban expansion, whereas in the case of China there's a significant lag - urbanisation is well underway (if you see area and population figures of just 1 decade go) and at a very fast pace, and one shouldn't automatically assume that'll continue forever. Not forgetting the fact that there are already signs of deurbanisation (a few of my family and family friends in Shanghai have already bought retirement properties in smaller towns outside of Shanghai), the idea of a megatropolis with populations of 20 million + just doesn't go down well with the people, who at the end of the day, do value cleanliness and space.

To compare apples with apples one only needs to look at Beijing, which is one of the few Chinese cities with fairly good railway infrastructure. It's not hard to see it does have a London-style ring of terminals none of which too far from the centre.

At the end of the day a railway station here and a railway station there are both railway stations, which I'm sure you'll agree.



Don't get me wrong, having the railway built is infinitely better than not having it at all. As for the practicality argument, a long term view is surely needed? I've also argued on a number of occasions that inner-city development is relatively easy while opportunities now exist.
You still cannot grasp the urbanization process in China. Like you said, you know some people who are moving out of Shanghai. But that is not de-urbanization. Rather it is just moving from the very big city of Shanghai to some other neighboring cities which are also undergoing rapid urbanization.
Cities like Suzhou is a good example of such movement out from Shanghai.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 11:37 AM   #1259
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You still cannot grasp the urbanization process in China. Like you said, you know some people who are moving out of Shanghai. But that is not de-urbanization. Rather it is just moving from the very big city of Shanghai to some other neighboring cities which are also undergoing rapid urbanization.
Cities like Suzhou is a good example of such movement out from Shanghai.
Compare Tokyo again. While Tokyo itself has under 9 million inhabitants, the 7 prefectures of Kanto have 42 million people over 32 000 square km. And 36 million people are concentrated on 13 000 square km.

All Shinkansen have 3 stops in Kanto. Tokaido Shinkansen stops at Shin-Yokohama (25 km from Tokyo), Shinagawa (6,8 km from Tokyo) and Tokyo Station. Tohoku and Joetsu Shinkansen stop at Omiya (31 km from Tokyo), Ueno (just 3,6 km from Tokyo) and continue to terminate at Tokyo Station as well.

Shanghai is geographically a dead end peninsula between Hangzhou Bay and Yangtze.

My advice would be to extend all high speed lines, rails as well as maglev, to Pudong Airport. Having the trains continue to Pudong rather than terminate in Hongqiao would not make the travel times from west to Hongqiao any longer, the trains will be terminating at Pudong where in sparsely settled eastern outskirts of city land for deports and workshops is easier to find, and passengers can disembark at Pudong Airport.

If, say, a high-speed rail line covers the line Suzhou-Hongqiao in 20 minutes and in another 10 minutes terminates in Pudong, it would be easy to carry out daily commute Suzhou-Shanghai, even with the need to change to subway at Suzhou, Hongqiao or Pudong subway station or both ends.

And the final leg of the long-distance high-speed trains would offer better frequencies to travel between Pudong and Shanghai, as well as make it easy for passengers elsewhere in Jiangnan and further to fly out of Pudong.
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Old February 6th, 2010, 01:19 PM   #1260
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Are you kidding about Nantong and Fuzhou? Both of these prefectural level cities have a few million population. They may be small by Chinese standards, but way more populous than most British cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzhou
The administrative boundaries are wildly overspecified. Nantong contains 3 county-level cities which are themselves comparable to the Nantong urban area in size and population. I find it incredible how certain posters talk as though smaller urban centres don't exist or they will not absorb any rural population.

Urban Nantong itself (Chongchuan district) currently has only just over 600 thousand people, which is like a compact version of Greater Nottingham. The 7-million population can be easily distributed across the 8 county-level centres, so each city needn't have more than 2 million people.
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