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Old July 9th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #1341
yaohua2000
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
On the map, it looks like a big southward detour to reach Lanzhou via Zhengzhou.

Are there any plans for a shortcut between Beijing and Lanzhou via Taiyuan, Baotou or Huh-hoto?
No. The line from Taiyuan to Zhongwei, expected to be opened later this year, is designed for 160–200 km/h running.
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Old July 9th, 2010, 11:34 PM   #1342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Beijing – Shijiazhuang South: 281 km
Shijiazhuang South – Zhengzhou East: ~380 km
Zhengzhou East – Xi'an North: 473 km
Xi'an North – Baoji South: 148 km
Baoji South – Lanzhou West: 401 km
Lanzhou West – Urumqi: 1776 km

1-
Total distance from Beijing to Urumqi by new line: ~3460 kmSome sources say it will be 11 hours (ref 1), and others say it will be 12 (ref 2). Let's say 11.5 hours

3460 km / 11.5 hours = 301 km/h



On the latest timetable, the fast train from Wuhan to Guangzhou South is averaging 296 km/h (968 km in 03h16m) with one stop in Changsha South. 301 km/h in average is not slow at all.
Dear yaohua2000,
Thank you very much indeed for your explanations.
.
I thought that the entire line was 1,776 km and the 12-14 hours referred to just this section.....so I have divided 1,776 :12 =..148 km/h of average commercial speed.

This did not make too much sense to me .. for a line planned for 350 km/h, and this also in view of the recent Chinese world commercial speed records...

Impressive achievement.
Now I feel much better
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Old July 10th, 2010, 03:02 AM   #1343
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i seriously doubt this line is gonna be 350km/h. Wiki says it is expected to cost 143,5 bln rmb. eg less than 27% more than Wuhan-Guangzhou line that is almost half the length (about 54%). Yet another 350km/h line - Beijing Shanghai will cost 220,9 bln RMB for just 1302 km.

So, I think, the 350km/h speed mentioned refers not to the entire line, but just the fastest stretch of it. Besides, the source of it hardly credible...
Also the only place that actually states 12 hours from Urumqi to Beijing is just a first post in this thread by Yaohua2000. There is no any credible confirmation of it anywhere else.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 07:40 AM   #1344
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Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
i seriously doubt this line is gonna be 350km/h. Wiki says it is expected to cost 143,5 bln rmb. eg less than 27% more than Wuhan-Guangzhou line that is almost half the length (about 54%). Yet another 350km/h line - Beijing Shanghai will cost 220,9 bln RMB for just 1302 km.

So, I think, the 350km/h speed mentioned refers not to the entire line, but just the fastest stretch of it. Besides, the source of it hardly credible...
Also the only place that actually states 12 hours from Urumqi to Beijing is just a first post in this thread by Yaohua2000. There is no any credible confirmation of it anywhere else.
Well, for this line the land cost is virtually "zero". There is much less elevated parts. Only expensive part might be where they need wind curtains and I bet it will be still much cheaper than elevated railroad. So I don't think that amount of money is little for 350km/h line.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #1345
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All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.

Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:

typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.

BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
"Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.

So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 04:59 PM   #1346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.

Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:

typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.

BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
"Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.

So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.


If you like high speed railroads, you should have some of that "burning desire", too. It is not a bad thing

What I remember from news is that this railroad will have a turning radius of 7000m. This is why I think It can be 350km/h line.

I know land is leased to people in China but it is for 99 years. In all projects government pays to relocate people. In eastern regions it sums quite a lot. In western regions it is nothing simply because population density is nothing.

Although conditions are harsh it is not Tibet or crazy mountainous like some other parts where you need tunnels followed by bridges etc.

Not much of this;

image hosted on flickr


Even this line is a 250km/h line it is still very impressive and I don't have anything to complain.

Also, this project might be the fist phase of that Europe-China HSR, who knows...
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Old July 10th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #1347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.

Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:

typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.

BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
"Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.

So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.
This is not my original work, it is my reproduce from a television shot, which is copyrighted, not suitable for Wikipedia.


Last edited by yaohua2000; July 10th, 2010 at 05:19 PM.
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Old July 10th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #1348
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wrong thread
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Old July 10th, 2010, 08:58 PM   #1349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
Beijing – Shijiazhuang South: 281 km
Shijiazhuang South – Zhengzhou East: ~380 km
Zhengzhou East – Xi'an North: 473 km
Xi'an North – Baoji South: 148 km
Baoji South – Lanzhou West: 401 km
Lanzhou West – Urumqi: 1776 km

Total distance from Beijing to Urumqi by new line: ~3460 km

Some sources say it will be 11 hours (ref 1), and others say it will be 12 (ref 2). Let's say 11.5 hours

3460 km / 11.5 hours = 301 km/h
How are such speeds feasible? Considering the functional part has average speed of just 232 km/h, covering Zhengzhou-Xian in 1:58?

When shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou railway open? Something like 660 km.

And what shall be the trip time Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian, including the station stops?
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Old July 10th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #1350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How are such speeds feasible? Considering the functional part has average speed of just 232 km/h, covering Zhengzhou-Xian in 1:58?

When shall Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou railway open? Something like 660 km.

And what shall be the trip time Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian, including the station stops?
Zhengzhou-Xi'an is slow because trains currently using old stations on old tracks. The travel time will be shorten a lot after the new stations to be opened.




Last edited by yaohua2000; July 10th, 2010 at 10:12 PM.
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Old July 11th, 2010, 08:45 PM   #1351
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Not to mention it will probably be cheaper.
Sure of that ? In Europe, flying is usually cheaper than the train on the same journey... The différence is due to the fact that

1) airlines have competitors while high-speed rail doesn't (yet?)

2) your occupancy of the train seat is 3-4 times longer than on the plane, along with the trainset, personnel, etc, that goes with it.
For a journey of, say, 1000 km, a high-speed train will usually be able to do one round trip per day, while a plane will do 3 or 4...
For non high-speed, it is even worse, a train trip from Brussels to Istanbul will usually cost € 300 not including bed accomodation,
while a flight on the same journey can be obtained for less than € 100...

Last edited by MarcVD; July 11th, 2010 at 08:51 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #1352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Sure of that ? In Europe, flying is usually cheaper than the train on the same journey... The différence is due to the fact that

1) airlines have competitors while high-speed rail doesn't (yet?)

2) your occupancy of the train seat is 3-4 times longer than on the plane, along with the trainset, personnel, etc, that goes with it.
For a journey of, say, 1000 km, a high-speed train will usually be able to do one round trip per day, while a plane will do 3 or 4...
For non high-speed, it is even worse, a train trip from Brussels to Istanbul will usually cost € 300 not including bed accomodation,
while a flight on the same journey can be obtained for less than € 100...
China is the reverse.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 08:03 PM   #1353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
All the land in China is always owned by state and nobody else. People on land are mere long term lease holders. Although state does pay some sort of compensations this in no way (unless this land "magically" happens to be in lease by some "very special families") anywhere same as if that would be private property. So I wouldn't factor "land price" as too impotent factor into cost consideration.
Extremely harsh climate conditions where ti will pass through on the other hand are completely out of gov control. Much greater difference between summer and winter and ever day and night temperature would inevitably add to the cost.
Elevated track is used because it is most cost effective way to stabilize it. And you don't really know how much of it will be laid here. Area is very seismically unstable.
so when you add all together there is NO way that 350km/h line could be built in such conditions at the cost of 11 ml $us per km.

Besides till just now when this article surface in that online source that very vaguely source it on its end - first sight that you shouldn't take it seriously - nowhere has this project had been said to be 350 km/h. In fact I distinctly remember number of 200 or 250 km/h.. And the whole 12 hour Beijing to Urumqi thing has never been state ANYWHERE. In fact I'm sure it comes fro this hypothetical map and assumption:

typical "what if" speculation. Mind you it appears to be made by Yaohua2000 and as a source "own work" is credited. So, in a sense he is crediting himself. One must be critical of the sources of information and not just repeat anything that someone written somewhere in the Internet.

BTW in the same Wikipedia article containing that map by Yaohua2000 table of
"Other Passenger Designated High Speed Railways" claims this line (Lanzhou-Xinjiang PDL (Lanxin Passenger Designated Line) to be 300km/h.

So, when you add all these together imho there nothing more that burning desire of some people that goes for 350km/h here. No way such a line could be built in such conditions at such cost.
Costing seem reasonable.

Land acquisition cost in China is very expansive. The part where the government extorts the current land users are mostly [email protected] promulgated by many anti-Chinese groups who uses it as an example to advance their own other motives.

I have Chinese friends who's got very good deals for the redevelopment of their property. Forgive me if I believe them more than I believe you.


This railway will be built on flat desert terrain with minimal bridges and tunnels. This is comparing to Wuhan-Guangzhou's plethora of tunnels and Beijing-Shanghai's urbanized and owned farming real estate.

I can see this happening.

Althought the reason for this to happen will most likely be political rather than economical.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 08:51 PM   #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Sure of that ? In Europe, flying is usually cheaper than the train on the same journey... The différence is due to the fact that

1) airlines have competitors while high-speed rail doesn't (yet?)

2) your occupancy of the train seat is 3-4 times longer than on the plane, along with the trainset, personnel, etc, that goes with it.
For a journey of, say, 1000 km, a high-speed train will usually be able to do one round trip per day, while a plane will do 3 or 4...
For non high-speed, it is even worse, a train trip from Brussels to Istanbul will usually cost € 300 not including bed accomodation,
while a flight on the same journey can be obtained for less than € 100...
I'm not very familiar with trains on the continent so please excuse some questions.

In the UK train ticket prices vary according to how early in advanced it is booked just like airlines. Is it the same on the mainland and if you could shed more light on like-for-like comparisons (like advance purchase vs advance purchase and walk-up vs walk-up) that'd be great. How do the two modes on Paris - Berlin corridor compare for example?
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Old July 12th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #1355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaohua2000 View Post
This is not my original work, it is my reproduce from a television shot, which is copyrighted, not suitable for Wikipedia.

click on picture to see large (2000 pix wide shot)

I see... actually I think I know where this map is from... it is displayed at the waiting hole of Beijing South Railway station. But I'm sure it is a "hypothetical" / "what if" map rather than a firm plan.

I do love fast trains and Chinese ones particularly. And I do have desire. Yet I don't want to burn to the level of where it start to replays or distort reality.

Well I may be wrong...
At any rate here is a Map that is displayed in Beijing South for sure - photographed it myself:



according to it the line to Urumqi is NOT even dedicated passenger line (those are marked by thick red lines)! Which I would imagine makes it 200-250km/h max line.
Also it has never been listed among PDL lines

Last edited by SimFox; July 12th, 2010 at 09:38 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 09:27 PM   #1356
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Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
I see... actually I think I know where this map is from... it is displayed at the waiting hole of Beijing South Railway station. But I'm sure it is a "hypothetical" / "what if" map rather than a firm plan.

I do love fast trains and Chinese ones particularly. And I do have desire. Yet I don't want to burn to the level of where it start to replays or distort reality.
Then who put the map up at Beijing South?

What is realistic (and the map does not say when)?

Are Zhengzhou East and Xian North under construction?

Is it realistic to open them in 2011? Which month of 2011 is each of them due to open? And what shall be the trip time after they both have opened?

Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian is about 1150 km. Only 200 km longer than Wuhan-Guangzhou, which does have 300 km/h average speed.

When Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian shall open, shall 4 hours be a realistic trip time?
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Old July 12th, 2010, 09:49 PM   #1357
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Then who put the map up at Beijing South?
I might have been wrong about it being there. And, I think, you can see why - take a look at my message and the map there. That map was/is in the Beijing South and this map is by Ministry or Railways

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
What is realistic (and the map does not say when)?

Are Zhengzhou East and Xian North under construction?

Is it realistic to open them in 2011? Which month of 2011 is each of them due to open? And what shall be the trip time after they both have opened?

Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian is about 1150 km. Only 200 km longer than Wuhan-Guangzhou, which does have 300 km/h average speed.

When Beijing-Shijiazhuang-Zhengzhou-Xian shall open, shall 4 hours be a realistic trip time?
Speed depends not on the length per se, but on the construction and VERY much material used.
Take a look here Xian will have 350 km/h line.
Also it is clearly shown on "my" map that it has PDL stretching east and west from it. PDL doesn't yet mean 350km/h, but it means it could be. If line is NOT PDL, it can NOT be 350km/h
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Old July 12th, 2010, 10:07 PM   #1358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimFox View Post
At any rate here is a Map that is displayed in Beijing South for sure - photographed it myself:



according to it the line to Urumqi is NOT even dedicated passenger line (those are marked by thick red lines)! Which I would imagine makes it 200-250km/h max line.
Also it has never been listed among PDL lines
This map had been there for two years. Lots of things has been changed since then.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 10:38 PM   #1359
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Originally Posted by SimFox View Post

Speed depends not on the length per se, but on the construction and VERY much material used.
Certainly. But the data on length, intended travel time and intended speed are dependent on each other and can be used to cross-check against each other.
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Old July 12th, 2010, 11:44 PM   #1360
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only if that data (I assume you are talking about travel time) is reliable.
My very point was that it is NOT reliable.
Cost of the line, it abcens on the official map all suggest it.

The only evidence that this is gonna be 350km/h line comes from the map that also shows SAME type of line to Lhasa! Did you NOT noticed that?!
Would you also say that 350km/h line is in works to Lhasa as well?
In fact the map shows lines to ALL provincial capitols (as far as I see). That, to me a perfect proof that this is "what if " map.

Critical approach to evidence is a very important thing, otherwise you'd believe just anything people say to you...
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