Somali Politics | Siyaasada Soomaalida

[lordangers5]

Originally Posted by BUTEMBO21

You wanted proof? You got proof that Uganda has nothing to spend on airlifting it own soldiers, let alone being a a neighborhood guards for a group of jokers called transitional government.

.

I think your right BUtombo to the question we were asking. I think we were asking the wrong question. Anyways we want to know if the US is bankrolling the Ugandans. Paying for their mission is useless because if they werent on the mission then they woulnt need the assistance. Also they hve to pay the bonus for Ugandan troops on peace missions. So if anything they are loosing money for this mission. I want proof that the US is giving money to the Ugandan gov that doesnt involve support for AMISOM please. If you agree with me then sorry for wasting your time like that

[Xusein]

Who really cares? Does it change anything? No.

[Constantine MMX]

Originally Posted by Janub

I found this on another forum, a guy compared Somalia to feudal Japan during the Sengoku Jidai period.





Here's some background on the comparisons he gave:

The Somali civil war seems to be following the exact route that Feudal Japan took to reunification...

1) Central Power (Ashikaga Shogunate, Siad Barre's government) becomes a joke as the powerful clans of the country arm themselves.
2) The most powerful clans in the country duke it out in an enormously bloody conflict that destroys all governing order in the country (Ōnin War, Somalia 1991-1993), the country becomes a seething mass of killing, looting and destruction.
3) The powerful clan factions turn on each other, and tear the country into a million pieces. Military warlords overthrow the "legitimate" aristocracy (Gekokujō, Somalia 1993-2000)
4) Religious groups attempt to establish some order and law (Ikkō-ikki, Islamic Courts), inevitably they are driven to establish a theocratic administration.
5) The most powerful groups begin conquering their weaker neighbors and establish regional hegemonic states. The most powerful amongst them begins conquering the other states one by one until there are only a handful of very powerful states left in the country.
6) The most powerful group begins conquering all the others. <--- Somalia is here

The similarities are mind boggling, even the maps are identical.

One fragmentated country will resemble another fragmentated country, regardless of timeperiod, these are basic patterns your seeing, someone in Feudal Japan probably could make the same comparison with the Warring States period of China two thousand years before. Unlike Somalia, the Pre-Meji Japanese realm did not have to endure continues meddling and interventions from Qing China, or the British Empire/America/Soviet Union whenever a strong Japanese power attempted to incorporate other Japanese territories, they were isolated.

If you look from a historic persepective, the Japanese smelled the Colonialists coming and made the right alliances; up and coming America, which recently freed itself from Britain, and strongly believed in self determination for other countries at the time. They supplied the Japanese with modern weapons and spearheaded economic reforms. In our case the Dervish had the military hardware and the manpower to carve out a strong Somali State (which they did) and held the colonial powers at bay for a quarter of a century, but in the end their alliance with the Central powers aka "the losers of WW I" resulted in what would have been a natural case of Somali nation building being destroyed by British Airplanes, same again with the Ogaden War and the gigantic Soviet intervention, and today America & Co. seem to be hell bend on thwarting any Somali attempt to reconcile within themselves for the silliest reasons. The UN embargo on arms also served to keep a stalemate between the warlords, though that was rendered obsolete post-2006, the reason for all of this is quite obvious.

Also if the British had given China and Korea parts of the Japanese archipelago, that place today would be a heavily militarised region resembling North Korea. The Somali situation and historical experience is therefore quite different.

The way I see it; as Al-Shabab's economic profits from the farms and the ports of the South increase, their rhetoric and draconian rules will mellow out, and eventually something similar to the Islamic Courts will form. Right now their survival seems to be economically dependent on foreign sources. The new cabinet of the TFG in my opinion is impressive, not a single warlord in it, instead actual educated and qualified Somalis are part of it. I would like to see Al-Shabab and TFG sitting down together, with both agreeing to purge out all foreign influences and form a national government. As for the others; Somaliland is the gem of the region with its progressive political culture, something Puntland is emulating by recently approving a multi-party system, which is why I share Xusein's sentiment and hope Galmudug remains a strong buffer.

One thing is certain though, Somalia when it comes out of this rut will be much more robust politically, socially and economically than pre-91'.

[Xusein]

I think Sharif needs to step down, he has become as poisonous as AY as far as negotiation with the Islamists. His mandate has failed. Even with this relatively clean "government", his presence has ruined everything.

He needs to go into the sunset...his disappointing attitude let down millions and he can't recover.

The only solution that can come out for Southern Somalia I believe is a power-sharing deal. Of course this probably not happen.

[BUTEMBO21]

Originally Posted by lordangers5

I think your right BUtombo to the question we were asking. I think we were asking the wrong question. Anyways we want to know if the US is bankrolling the Ugandans. Paying for their mission is useless because if they werent on the mission then they woulnt need the assistance. Also they hve to pay the bonus for Ugandan troops on peace missions. So if anything they are loosing money for this mission. I want proof that the US is giving money to the Ugandan gov that doesnt involve support for AMISOM please. If you agree with me then sorry for wasting your time like that

I have proven that Uganda's military depends on US aid. You keep refuting that.

Besides. All these peacakeeping missions (In Sudan, in Somalia, in Burundi, in DRC , Tchad). are being sponsored by US and EU. who make the UN money banks. The likes of Uganda, Burundi etc... are too poor to pay for Logistics of their troops, let alone operations, when they can't even pay for their country's problems.

You can believe what you want, but facts are in front of you.

[lordangers5]

Originally Posted by BUTEMBO21

I have proven that Uganda's military depends on US aid. You keep refuting that.

Besides. All these peacakeeping missions (In Sudan, in Somalia, in Burundi, in DRC , Tchad). are being sponsored by US and EU. who make the UN money banks. The likes of Uganda, Burundi etc... are too poor to pay for Logistics of their troops, let alone operations, when they can't even pay for their country's problems.

You can believe what you want, but facts are in front of you.

Oh sorry BUTOMBO. I see what you are saying now. You are saying that Uganda's military is dependant on the US. Oh ok. Well I would have to say no really. Did quite well in the congolese wars before bringing in the militias. Struggled with the LRA but then anyone would with such a brutal opponent. It was a troubled country. I suppose nowadays it relies on the US a lot. I think one of the key factors however in pushing back the LRA recently was the cooperation of states in that area. So yeah, go on, I agree with you

[Janub]

Originally Posted by Constantine MMX

One thing is certain though, Somalia when it comes out of this rut will be much more robust politically, socially and economically than pre-91'.

I solidly agree with this. A comparison I've always made was the region of Palestine (today's Israel) before and after Jewish exodus. When the Jews returned to occupy the region they brought with them lessons, hardships, intelligence, and skills that transformed the place and turned arid pieces of land into economic hubs and forged connections with the outside world on a new scale and relatively quickly. Somalia will basically be a clean slate for returning diaspora to forge new identities and wealth within a nation that's never been tapped for resources. The few and the brave who return will instantly become rich while transforming the land.

[uyomufok]

can one really justify this so called non-interference in another person's internal affairs? Even on humanitarian grounds, don't we all realise that Somalia needs help from itself? Uganda and Rwanda are doing a good thing irrespective what anyone would say. Al-shabbab and other sundry groups that are deaf and dumb and only understand the language of AK47 must be resisted in every frontier. If Museveni has understood this and is resisting the evil ideaology behind the al-shabbab group, I say ride up !

[Yoniii]

Originally Posted by mwanamwiwa

Why is it fake?Another way of undermining Ethiopia?

Of course it is, pathetic.

Butembo, I believe that your view on Somalia would had been extremely different if Congo was located in the Horn/East Africa.

[Constantine MMX]

Yeah because Somalia is somekind of a Behemoth wishing destruction upon the entire region, right? This regional threat nonsense is a reality imposed on Somalia, it's this specific country who has lost the most as a result of regional and foreign meddling, and it pisses me off when I see intellectually bankrupt individuals act like Somalis' sole wish is spreading carnage and mayhem, such utter rubbish. Two decades of Anarchy in the South of the country and the only example of a violent attack outside its borders are the Kampala bombings where 80+ people died compare this to the 25000 + dead Somali civilians as a result of foreign interventions, regional threat my ass!

As for Butembo, the guy is spot on, even the topic starter admitted Uganda's real reason for acting as cannon fodder on a different topic:

Originally Posted by kihihi

It seems most people do not realize the benefits to the countries that send troops to somalia and i don't see how the harm outweighs the benefits of the mission to such countries.
Firstly armies that send troops to Somalia get brand new equipment free of charge thus a portion of their budgets spent on the military is reduced and the saved funds can be redirected to other development projects in their countries i.e roads, schools,hospitals.

Secondly, the salaries of soldiers in somalia far outweigh the salaries then earn in their countries thus the extra money is remitted back to their families and helps their welfare.i.e In uganda the salary of a private is 100$ per month while in somalia they earn extra allowances of 750$ per month. If he dies in somalia his family is given 50,000$ in compensation while if he died in central african republic fighting LRA rebels his family would have got 500$ in compensation.

Thirdly the ugandan army gets free specialized training to improve the abilities of their soldiers something that would have cost more money i the used their own resources.

Fourthly, Due to Uganda's contribution in somalia a major UN bases supposed to serve peacekeepers around Africa is to be built in uganda. It will house up to 50,000 peacekeepers at one time and has a budget of 5 billion dollars annually a portion of which will be pumped into the Ugandan economy annually boosting it tremendously. It is similar to how the large american bases around the world pump money into the local economy.

Now sincerely tell me why any serious leadership in Africa that wants its country to develop should fore go such benefits? May because Somalia can not be conquered, al shabaab will send us suicide bombers?

WE ARE TO POOR GIVE A FUCK,SOMALIS SHOULD KEEP SUCH THREATS TO RICH COUNTRIES.

^African Brotherhood in action

[Yoniii]

Originally Posted by Constantine MMX

Yeah because Somalia is somekind of a Behemoth wishing destruction upon the entire region, right?

You took it the wrong way. If the Wahhabi missionaries take full control of the country, it could (most likely) be a very dangerous situation in the region. A Somalia that's not influenced by foreign extremism would probably not be a threat to the region.

[Xusein]

Constantine MMX, saaxiib, I think it's fruitless to really explain the situation in Somalia to some here except in the black/white simplification views, I've tried many times without avail...if they think backing up a corpse of a government and continuing the bloodshed in Somalia with a foreign "peacekeepers" is the way to "fix" Somalia, so be it.

History has blown this idea out of the water to be false numerous times, but we can't force people to change their minds.

[Constantine MMX]

Yonii, maybe one has to take a deep look at the region and analyse the real threat that has been transparent for the last decade, process where lives have been lost the most, where international justice has been violated with impunity the most and then come back and try to convince me the Somali situation is such a paramount threat that one needs to intervene.

Xusein sxbow, you're correct, its futile, some here have played to much Call of Duty and think war is a game, and Somalia is somekind of a walk in the park, yet it always boomerangs back in their face, and you would then think there was an important lesson learned, but a few years later some other confused characters will show their thirst for Somali blood by hiding behind terms like ideology, regional threat and other nonsense covering their real intentions.

When you point out what gave power to groups like Al-Shabab in the first place, you are accused of "blaming it on the foreigners". How convenient.

Lots of ill-will for this country, so those appeals for useless interventions shouldn't come as a surprise.

[BUTEMBO21]

Originally Posted by Yoniii

Butembo, I believe that your view on Somalia would had been extremely different if Congo was located in the Horn/East Africa.

What are you trying to say? Did i say something you disaprove of?

My argument has been about Uganda doing the dirty job fo it masters. and US is the one that pays the bills. Whilst Museveni is the one making profits whilst Uganda are being punished because of it government.

Unless you have something that you view differently. Then spit it out. I don't speak on emotions, but facts.

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Constantine MMX

Yeah because Somalia is somekind of a Behemoth wishing destruction upon the entire region, right? This regional threat nonsense is a reality imposed on Somalia, it's this specific country who has lost the most as a result of regional and foreign meddling, and it pisses me off when I see intellectually bankrupt individuals act like Somalis' sole wish is spreading carnage and mayhem, such utter rubbish. Two decades of Anarchy in the South of the country and the only example of a violent attack outside its borders are the Kampala bombings where 80+ people died compare this to the 25000 + dead Somali civilians as a result of foreign interventions, regional threat my ass!

As for Butembo, the guy is spot on, even the topic starter admitted Uganda's real reason for acting as cannon fodder on a different topic:



^African Brotherhood in action

Everyone knows what is up, but there are some who would like to deny everything

[Xusein]

Merged this and the other thread of Somali politics together.

Seems better to have the threads together since they overlap obviously.

[Ajepako]

Butembo's hatred for peacekeeping is horrifying.

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Yoniii

Of course it is, pathetic.

Butembo, I believe that your view on Somalia would had been extremely different if Congo was located in the Horn/East Africa.

Somalis issues would have never left its borders if it wasn't for foreign interference. I can count on one hand the amount of times Somalis have done a massive bombing outside of its borders in the decades it has been in war.

All Somalis know this and a few non Somalis. Everyone else prefer to delude themselves into thinking that bringing even more foreigners to Somalia will somehow "fix things"

Originally Posted by Ajepako

Butembo's hatred for peacekeeping is horrifying.

Let those in AU "peace keep" somewhere else. Somalia doesn't want or need them or their meddling.

[Ajepako]

i seriously commend Uganda's efforts.

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

i seriously commend Uganda's efforts.

Then you are one of the few. I think Uganda is pathetic and stupid to do this.