Somali Politics | Siyaasada Soomaalida

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by abesha

There's nothing revisionist about this. The reality is that Somalis are not willing to work together; if they were Somaliland + Puntland could have stabilized the rest of the country. That didn't happen did it. It's every man for himself.

Blame it on Ethiopia if you like, but your country will NEVER EVER solve its issues if you are always looking to blame outsiders for your problems. Only YOU can assert control over what happens there as you guys keep repeating here, but you are not doing the necessary work for that. You have to own your internal problems first and accept that if foreigners are meddling to the point you are left on your knees, it's because you let them get to you.

Fucking bullshit. The existence of Somaliland proves difference. Somalis are more likely than any other EA country to have a proper democracy unlike the joke of elections next to Somaliland.

Somalis can work together as much anyone else. How else did Somaliland get itself sorted? By our traditional means of compromise and negotiation.

I am so sick and tired of hearing from Non Somalis who come from countries that helped fuck up Somalia attempt to shift all the blame on Somalis after whining about the result because of the inability to admit mistakes and then have those same countries have the nerve to tell Somalis what they need to do.
All Somalis know we need to fix our own backyard with hopefully one day Somaliland and Puntland playing a role. But it won't happen as long as foreign countries seek to use Somalia

No one in Somalia wants foreigner in our land, we don't WANT your help in our Governance. But somehow the rest of the world seems physically incapable of getting that through their head and support of warlords, corrupt tinpot Governments. When we actually choose Islamists who (shock horror, actually stabilise the Capital). Ethiopia doesn't like that, oh no. So it has to try and get back the warlords and then seems shocked, shocked I tell when Somalis turn on them as the invaders and Islamists are strengthened

[Xusein]

abesha:

Just because we bring up the foreign interference doesn't mean that we do not blame Somalis themselves for their current situation. I think you need to stop using this idea that we think this, it's wrong and misleading. Somalia went to war because of simmering disputes created by the dictator that erupted when he was ousted.

I think foreign assistance if done right could help Somalia get back on it's feet, obviously we all live in the same world and nobody develops on their own. More in the form of advisers though, not troops. But this kind of foreign assistance is extending the conflict. The world is supporting a corpse. There is no real aim or strategy except "lets kill the terrorists". Somalia has been at war for 22 years and Islamism has only been a part of it, and the wounds that created the war from the beginning is not even attempted to be healed by anyone.

[Ajepako]

I've noticed a habit by somalis to blame 'outsiders' for they countries problems. Your country was united for maybe a decade, on the decade it was a brutal islamist regime that started attacking it's neighbors

for the rest of history your country has been in a total and complete state of war and chaos and is the only country the world over feels comfortable calling a failed state. Obviously the somali's dont know how to solve their problems.


foreign intervention didn't make anything 'worst', your country has a culture geared more for killing and carnage then actual rational development.

Your people have has centuries to get it right and haven't, the rest of the world is tired of having their citizens killed, their borders flooded with refugees, their continent embarrassed, their trade diminished, and now their building bombed all for and from a country that is build specifically for failure and conflict.



^Look at the somali parliment . What foreigner caused that disaster?

Originally Posted by abesha

That's the truth. If not, A. the country wouldn't have collapsed to begin with, and B. The entire 90s (after US left) and most of the 2000s, Somalians were left alone - where was this miraculous peace that supposedly happens with non-interference?

thank you. this pathetic scapegoating of foreigners needs to stop. Somalis caused the problem, somalis prolonged the problem, somalis benefit for the problem, somalis are the problem. Should the world cry for you because it was tired of watching you generation of your youth go uneducated, get kidnapped, raped, tortured, and wake up to gun shots everyday?

Originally Posted by Xusein

They did figure it out on their own, but the ideology was not palatable for outsiders.

because when they 'figured it out' they turned their guns on outsiders instead of putting the guns down in general.

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

I've noticed a habit by somalis to blame 'outsiders' for they countries problems. Your country was united for maybe a decade, on the decade it was a brutal islamist regime that started attacking it's neighbors

Incorrect.
We highlight foreign interference as a factor whenever it comes up (i.e. whenever foreigners wish to send more soldiers into Somalia somehow thinking it will fix it) but Somalis are ultimately to blame but one cannot expect Somalis to fix it with foreign countries who are unwanted butting their nose in.

And the fact you think this is Somali culture just speaks for itself. You have no knowledge of Somalia and Somalis history or culture. So I'll just take your opinion with a grain of salt

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

I've noticed a habit by somalis to blame 'outsiders' for they countries problems. Your country was united for maybe a decade, on the decade it was a brutal islamist regime that started attacking it's neighbors
.

I stopped reading here,

What a pathetic attempt for a rebuttal honestly, at least make sure your facts are correct

[Ajepako]

and i don't for one minute by this 'foreigners won't survive' in somali chest puffing a lot of somalis are doing. The ethiopian army annihilated anything that stood in its way somali's called opposition and achieved its military goals, it just couldn't ensure peace because somali's started blaming ethiopia for its problems

[abesha]

Originally Posted by Lailax

Fucking bullshit. The existence of Somaliland proves difference. Somalis are more likely than any other EA country to have a proper democracy unlike the joke of elections next to Somaliland.

Somalis can work together as much anyone else. How else did Somaliland get itself sorted? By our traditional means of compromise and negotiation.

Let me rephrase: I don't think Somalis are ready to work as one Somalia. I don't see that materializing any time soon.

No one in Somalia wants foreigner in our land, we don't WANT your help in our Governance. But somehow the rest of the world seems physically incapable of getting that through their head and support of warlords, corrupt tinpot Governments. When we actually choose Islamists who (shock horror, actually stabilise the Capital). Ethiopia doesn't like that, oh no. So it has to try and get back the warlords and then seems shocked, shocked I tell when Somalis turn on them as the invaders and Islamists are strengthened

It's fantasy to expect the entire planet to wash their hands of the Somalia issue. Countries are dealing with hundreds of thousands of refugees from there, the piracy in the seas is disturbing trade, etc. Look at what's posted in the other thread; even Kenya and Tanzania, who stayed out of the issue til now, are being dragged in it because even their economies are starting to be affected by this.

Neighboring countries have even more at stake than other countries because whatever happens there also has an effect on us. We cannot be expected to ignore that.

If there was at least attempts to reach some type of settlement that doesn't negatively affect the rest of the world (i.e. non-islamist), I doubt the rest of the world would get involved.

Originally Posted by Xusein

abesha:

Just because we bring up the foreign interference doesn't mean that we do not blame Somalis themselves for their current situation. I think you need to stop using this idea that we think this, it's wrong and misleading. Somalia went to war because of simmering disputes created by the dictator that erupted when he was ousted.

I haven't seen any evidence on here that there is any introspection by Somalis. Whenever I open a thread it's always about the US or Ethiopia or other foreign agents, so my impression was created by what's posted here. If I saw threads or even just posts here that addressed internal issues, I wouldn't have come to that conclusion.

I think foreign assistance if done right could help Somalia get back on it's feet, obviously we all live in the same world and nobody develops on their own. More in the form of advisers though, not troops. But this kind of foreign assistance is extending the conflict. The world is supporting a corpse. There is no real aim or strategy except "lets kill the terrorists". Somalia has been at war for 22 years and Islamism has only been a part of it, and the wounds that created the war from the beginning is not even attempted to be healed by anyone.

Advising who though? That's the main problem. Who do you advise? When the advice went to the TFG, they became hated by ordinary Somalis. So what makes you think that other groups would also not be seen suspiciously if they receive any assistance from the outside world?

[Ajepako]

Originally Posted by Lailax

Incorrect.
We highlight foreign interference as a factor whenever it comes up (i.e. whenever foreigners wish to send more soldiers into Somalia somehow thinking it will fix it) but Somalis are ultimately to blame but one cannot expect Somalis to fix it with foreign countries who are unwanted butting their nose in.

And the fact you think this is Somali culture just speaks for itself. You have no knowledge of Somalia and Somalis history or culture. So I'll just take your opinion with a grain of salt

give me some knowledge on somali culture that counters the fact that this has been a centuries old problem in somalia.

it's the painful truth. and if it wasn't the culture to begin with, 22 years is enough to entrench a culture of conflict into a people, you now have a generation of fighters who have never seen a day of peace and you want to tell me this its not in their culture?

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

and i don't for one minute by this 'foreigners won't survive' in somali chest puffing a lot of somalis are doing. The ethiopian army annihilated anything that stood in its way somali's called opposition and achieved its military goals, it just couldn't ensure peace because somali's started blaming ethiopia for its problems

No foreign country can tame Somalia. But hey, don't take our word for it.


Go try. We'll sit back and observe the inevitable withdrawal with a ...

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

and i don't for one minute by this 'foreigners won't survive' in somali chest puffing a lot of somalis are doing. The ethiopian army annihilated anything that stood in its way somali's called opposition and achieved its military goals, it just couldn't ensure peace because somali's started blaming ethiopia for its problems

What military goals remove the so called terrorist and have them replaced with harden and more extreme terrorist. Ethiopia was literally fighting one Somali clan and was estimated to lose a few thousand troops

[Ajepako]

this isn't about foreign countries taming somalia, this is about somalia not being a country. this is about somalia's inability to 'tame' somalians.

and why are you proud of not being 'tame', are you implying that you're animals?
why is a group of human beings who have spent 22 years killing their own proud that they can't solve a problem and develop?

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

You have no idea how funny I am finding that right now.

And what African country are YOU from hm?

[Xusein]

This is why I rather stick to the Somalia photo gallery thread here when talking about Somalia.

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

this isn't about foreign countries taming somalia, this is about somalia not being a country. this is about somalia's inability to 'tame' somalians.

and why are you proud of not being 'tame', are you implying that you're animals?
why is a group of human beings who have spent 22 years killing their own proud that they can't solve a problem and develop?

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

Most of Somalia is stable now, as you see in that graph. The only place which fighting constantly occurs is the capital where they are fighting for control over the airport and sea. Apart from that most region has stabilized

People always talk about Somali violence, yes it’s bad but nothing compared to the likes of Congo, Rwanda and during Nigerian civil war

I wouldn’t mind if Somalia followed Northern Nigeria style of self governance with Sharia Law, why can Nigeria be allowed this practice yet Somalia denied

[Ajepako]

Originally Posted by The Nomadic Warrior

What military goals remove the so called terrorist and have them replaced with harden and more extreme terrorist. Ethiopia was literally fighting one Somali clan and was estimated to lose a few thousand troops

Ethiopia BRUTALIZED all opposition lol. They took Mogadishu strengthened the government, and left.

the Ethiopians did everything they set to do

“Ethiopian defense forces were forced to enter into war to protect the sovereignty of the nation,” he said. “We are not trying to set up a government for Somalia, nor do we have an intention to meddle in Somalia's internal affairs. We have only been forced by the circumstances.”-Meles

militarily it was a total and complete cake walk

[Constantine MMX]

Originally Posted by abesha

You are really grasping at straws. When exactly during the civil war did Ethiopia collapse and descend into complete and total anarchy???

ETHIOPIA: A Land of Anarchy and Bloodshed. A population the size of 70s/80s Somalia died during the Ethiopian Civil War.

Thank you but I will take low-intensity anarchy any day over such a experience.

The entire state aparatus in Somalia is non-existent and that certainly didn't happen next door.

That's called devolution, Somalia is evolving into a far more 'fairer' place than pre-civil war, no more; single bustling metropolises sucking up all resources, several economic centers have been created, several administrations directly serving their populations have been created. No Somali wants a Siad Barre 2.0or a Somali version of Meles Zenawi, unless you think military brutality is a good example of a state apparatus.

Why didn't they band together as one country?

Why the hurry?, if one can choose between a natural process where everyone sorts out their own economic and social issues first and then they pick a date in the future to unite, comparable to the re-unification of Germany, why would they instead join prematurely and risk a similar situation of civil strife?

Every country in the 3rd world deals with foreign meddling in their affairs yet Somalia is the ONLY one that collapses and stays collapsed. Why is that?

LOL, why does Afghanistan stay collapsed?, why are North Korea and South Korea not united? There only a handful of countries in the world that experienced the type transparent meddling that Somalia endured, coincidently, they are in a similar debacle.

This is not rocket science.

There's nothing revisionist about this. The reality is that Somalis are not willing to work together; if they were Somaliland + Puntland could have stabilized the rest of the country. That didn't happen did it. It's every man for himself.

Again they are sorting out their own issues, there is no point in uniting at this moment when there is such a transparent foreign presence in the South flaming up the situation.

Blame it on Ethiopia if you like, but your country will NEVER EVER solve its issues if you are always looking to blame outsiders for your problems. Only YOU can assert control over what happens there as you guys keep repeating here, but you are not doing the necessary work for that. You have to own your internal problems first and accept that if foreigners are meddling to the point you are left on your knees, it's because you let them get to you.

Somalis are the last people you can use the "they always blame others" tag on, any qualified expert on the conflict from the Samatar brothers to Ken Menkhaus emphasize the destructive influence of foreigners over all other factors.

If the US and regional proxies had flamed up the Kenya elections troubles with arm shipments and money bags equivelant to the ones we saw going to the Somali Warlords, that place would be in utter turmoil, and Kenyans are probably one most peaceful individuals I have met, so that says alot.

Somalis certainly will solve their own problems by themselves, they have repeatedly shown they are capable of this. Whether its the establishment of regional states with multiparty elections that put to shame other countries in the region, or regional co-operations of Somali professionals and companies providing healthcare, education, transport, electricity and telecommunication to the masses on a large scale.

[Ajepako]

also the Transitional Government, Somaliland (closest thing to non-disgraceful in somalia), and Puntland all supported Ethiopia, it was only the Islamic Courts that were against them.

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

Ethiopia BRUTALIZED all opposition lol. They took Mogadishu strengthened the government, and left.

the Ethiopians did everything they set to do


militarily it was a total and complete cake walk

Yea, what was the opposition? A sub sub clan of a tribe,

Ethiopia military objectives was to remove ICU, they failed since Al Shabab remained. Of course, a conventional army should be able to capture a city against a militia with American support. After entering the city, they engaged in a long insurgency which they lost thousands of men and only strengthen Al Shabab. And let's not forget they were helped by other Somalis

[Ajepako]

and lol at lost thousands of men, the Ethiopians did WAY more damage to the ICU then they did to Ethiopia, i remember that summer, they were shooting you guys down like goats and lying about the numbers.

anyways, again, the problem with somali is that there's a large contingency of posters here and form real life experience, somalis that are proud of what's going on. they think it makes them look 'tough'



now he's going to try and act like Somalia is a better country then Ethiopia LOL

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

also the Transitional Government, Somaliland (closest thing to non-disgraceful in somalia), and Puntland all supported Ethiopia, it was only the Islamic Courts that were against them.

None of them would speak out against the invasion since America supported. They would have been classified as supporters or sympathizer had they opposed