Somali Politics | Siyaasada Soomaalida

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

now he's going to try and act like Somalia is a better country then Ethiopia LOL

You haven't answered my question.

Interesting

[Xusein]

Yeah, yeah, Somalia is the worst place on earth, and Somalis are the devil's children. Happy Ajepako?

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

also the Transitional Government, Somaliland (closest thing to non-disgraceful in somalia), and Puntland all supported Ethiopia, it was only the Islamic Courts that were against them.

Somaliland and Puntland couldn't speak otherwise their ass would have been invaded or branded as terrorists. That is the usual tactic.

Somaliland's sympathy and thoughts were however 100% with the Southern Somalis during Ethiopia's invasion into Somali territory.
No Somali supported Ethiopia except the joke of a fake Government the world props up. No Somali will ever support Ethiopia over their own.

[Ajepako]

Originally Posted by Xusein

Yeah, yeah, Somalia is the worst place on earth, and Somalis are the devil's children. Happy Ajepako?

wtf? if you think so.


My point is that somalians need to stop this habit of blaming foreigners for their problems or even saying they make it worst. Somalis caused the problem and somalis make it worst and it's become so ingrained in local culture that yes, you DO need foreign intervention, the only problem is they're not allowed to deal with you no holds barred.

the situation in somalia is not a source of pride, it's a total and absolute disgrace to anyone with shame and i'm tired of this "foreigners can't 'tame' somalia" nonsense because a total state of hopelessness doesn't mean your tough. that's all you're doing, trying to say, in directly, you're tough.

you're not tough, it's just nobody cares enough to deal with your problems for you and when they did (ethiopia) they annihilated the shit out of you. It's not their fault you guys couldn't maintain order afterwards

and now you want to act like Ethiopia because the very somalis killing your people said so. smh

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

wtf? if you think so.


My point is that somalians need to stop this habit of blaming foreigners for their problems or even saying they make it worst. Somalis caused the problem and somalis make it worst and it's become so ingrained in local culture that yes, you DO need foreign intervention, the only problem is they're not allowed to deal with you no holds barred.

the situation in somalia is not a source of pride, it's a total and absolute disgrace to anyone with shame and i'm tired of this "foreigners can't 'tame' somalia" nonsense because a total state of hopelessness doesn't mean your tough. that's all you're doing, trying to say, in directly, you're tough.

you're not tough, it's just nobody cares enough to deal with your problems for you and when they did (ethiopia) then annihilated the shit out of you. It's not their fault you guys couldn't maintain order afterwards

and now you want to act like Ethiopia because the very somalis killing your people said so. smh

Ethiopia did shit to Somalia.
Ethiopia deep down fears Somalia gaining peace and stability. Because once Somalia has peace and is military equipped, all eyes will turn back up North to regain back our land. Ethiopia fears a strong united Somalia

The longer this goes on, I am realising it is futile. You are incapable of understanding

And you haven't answered my question. Still.

[abesha]

Originally Posted by Constantine MMX

ETHIOPIA: A Land of Anarchy and Bloodshed. A population the size of 70s/80s Somalia died during the Ethiopian Civil War.

Thank you but I will take low-intensity anarchy any day over such a experience.

That's called an exaggeration to sell newspapers; it's not like the Western media are strangers to that. There has never been a Somali-style anarchy.
You are right, the civil war was extremely brutal, but it never lead to a collapse of the state.

That's called devolution, Somalia is evolving into a far more 'fairer' place than pre-civil war, no more; single bustling metropolises sucking up all resources, several economic centers have been created, several administrations directly serving their populations have been created. No Somali wants a Siad Barre 2.0or a Somali version of Meles Zenawi, unless you think military brutality is a good example of a state apparatus.

Again, if Somalia stabilizes, that's good for everyone. The dig at Zenawi (i.e. trying to dig at Ethiopia) is ridiculous. The average human would rather live under a dictatorship with a stable country and a rapidly growing economy than in a no-man's land.

Why the hurry?, if one can choose between a natural process where everyone sorts out their own economic and social issues first and then they pick a date in the future to unite, comparable to the re-unification of Germany, why would they instead join prematurely and risk a similar situation of civil strife?

That's actually what I think will/should happen, but that won't work with more than half the country in chaos.

LOL, why does Afghanistan stay collapsed?, why are North Korea and South Korea not united? There only a handful of countries in the world that experienced the type transparent meddling that Somalia endured, coincidently, they are in a similar debacle.

This is not rocket science.

No it's not rocket science. That's the exact thing I'm saying in regards to the Islamist leaders. That's no solution since it would have ultimately ended with an Afghan-style chaos. A short-term veneer of peace is not worth the long-term problems as we're seeing in Afghanistan.

North Korea and South Korea are not collapsed states.

Somalis are the last people you can use the "they always blame others" tag on, any qualified expert on the conflict from the Samatar brothers to Ken Menkhaus emphasize the destructive influence of foreigners over all other factors.

Again, if Somalis on this forum made more effort to talk about internal problems, that impression of you would not have been created.

If the US and regional proxies had flamed up the Kenya elections troubles with arm shipments and money bags equivelant to the ones we saw going to the Somali Warlords, that place would be in utter turmoil, and Kenyans are probably one most peaceful individuals I have met, so that says alot.

They wouldn't have done that in Kenya simply because there is a functioning government there. That's not the case in Somalia so it's not comparable.

Somalis certainly will solve their own problems by themselves, they have repeatedly shown they are capable of this. Whether its the establishment of regional states with multiparty elections that put to shame other countries in the region, or regional co-operations of Somali professionals and companies providing healthcare, education, transport, electricity and telecommunication to the masses on a large scale.

I'd like to see that happen on a nationwide scale, and not as isolated pockets.

[Xusein]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

wtf? if you think so.


My point is that somalians need to stop this habit of blaming foreigners for their problems or even saying they make it worst. Somalis caused the problem and somalis make it worst and it's become so ingrained in local culture that yes, you DO need foreign intervention, the only problem is they're not allowed to deal with you no holds barred.

the situation in somalia is not a source of pride, it's a total and absolute disgrace to anyone with shame and i'm tired of this "foreigners can't 'tame' somalia" nonsense because a total state of hopelessness doesn't mean your tough. that's all you're doing, trying to say, in directly, you're tough.

you're not tough, it's just nobody cares enough to deal with your problems for you and when they did (ethiopia) they annihilated the shit out of you. It's not their fault you guys couldn't maintain order afterwards

and now you want to act like Ethiopia because the very somalis killing your people said so. smh

The point is that while Somalis hold the major blame for the situation, there is foreign interference. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't about "pride" (WTF? what pride is there in the current situation?). The strategy that the US is using isn't working and is extending the problems and divisions, and thinking that peacekeepers are going to fix all of Somalia's ills is naive and ignorant of history.

[Constantine MMX]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

i don't know why you're using smilicons at me lol, there's nothing to laugh at on my side of the world, we have a government.

Yeah, a Nigerian government that can't even deal with with its own pirates. Somalia never had this problem under central rule. Not mention how the Niger Delta is still a conflict where your soldiers are shot down with impunity and civilians flee in their thousands. A country whose civil war saw the slaughter of more Nigerians than the entire civil war inflicted on Somalis, and still today has a lower life expectancy than Somalia, and a HIV aids rate that is the second highest on the continent, my friend your the last person to be even sitting on that delirious high horse.

GTFOH!

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Constantine MMX

Yeah, a Nigerian government that can't even deal with with its own pirates. Somalia never had this problem under central rule. Not mention how the Niger Delta is still a conflict where your soldiers are shot down with impunity and civilians flee in their thousands. A country whose civil war saw the slaughter of more Nigerians than the entire civil war inflicted on Somalis, and still today has a lower life expectancy than Somalia, and a HIV aids rate that is the second highest on the continent, my friend your the last person to be even sitting on that delirious high horse.

GTFOH!

He is Nigerian? And he is bitching about Somalia?!


No wonder he refused to answer my question.

[Xusein]

Come on guys, although I find his rhetoric ignorant and offensive myself, let's not go and insult other countries.

Let's argue with our better knowledge of the situation than get into petty insults.

[Ajepako]

Originally Posted by Constantine MMX

Yeah, a Nigerian government that can't even deal with with its own pirates. Somalia never had this problem under central rule. Not mention how the Niger Delta is still a conflict where your soldiers are shot down with impunity and civilians flee in their thousands. A country whose civil war saw the slaughter of more Nigerians than the entire civil war inflicted on Somalis, and still today has a lower life expectancy than Somalia, and a HIV aids rate that is the second highest on the continent, my friend your the last person to be even sitting on that delirious high horse.

GTFOH!

LOL nigeria has dealt with "nigerian pirates". To the point that the president is now one of their own.

are you REALLY going to try to compare nigeria to somalia dude? lol.


Nigeria forgot a civil war that lasted less then 4 years in the 1960s. The war ended, everyone moved on.

If there was more casualties in a country 10X the size and importance of your own geographical expression nobody is going to be shocked and surprised. but i guess for the sake of winning internet ego battles you can cite the Nigerian civil war in the 1960s as the reason somalia is a first world country.

Originally Posted by Lailax

He is Nigerian? And he is bitching about Somalia?!


No wonder he refused to answer my question.

LOL i guess Nigeria is a worst country then Somalia.

do you see what i mean? instead of admitting there's a SOMALI problem in SOMALIA your firing shots at me personally because of my nationality.
hey good job. smh lol.

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

LOL i guess Nigeria is a worst country then Somalia.

do you see what i mean? instead of admitting there's a SOMALI problem in SOMALIA your firing shots at me personally because of my nationality.
hey good job. smh lol.

I'd take Somalia over Nigeria if that is what you are asking. Less chance of dying by having sex
Nah mate. I fire shots at you because you make it so damn easy.

You are not worth Somalis time and effort to explain. I'd suggest to everyone else to leave Ajepako to his delusions about Somalia and to not bother answering back to his posts. Some people are hopeless cases.

[Lailax]

So to everyone else:

What would you say is necessary to occur in the South for peace to occur? Should Puntland/Somaliland be playing a more/less active role?

The Wikileaks suggests Eritrea is funding Al Shabab, should that be stopped entirely as well.

[BUTEMBO21]

Originally Posted by Lailax

I'd take Somalia over Nigeria if that is what you are asking. Less chance of dying by having sex
Nah mate. I fire shots at you because you make it so damn easy.

You are not worth Somalis time and effort to explain. I'd suggest to everyone else to leave Ajepako to his delusions about Somalia and to not bother answering back to his posts. Some people are hopeless cases.

[abesha]

Originally Posted by Xusein

The point is that while Somalis hold the major blame for the situation, there is foreign interference. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't about "pride" (WTF? what pride is there in the current situation?). The strategy that the US is using isn't working and is extending the problems and divisions, and thinking that peacekeepers are going to fix all of Somalia's ills is naive and ignorant of history.

Although I don't agree with some of what Ajepako has said, I do concur with him on this point. It almost sounds like people are proud of not allowing any foreign assistance due to the constant "you can never tame Somalis", etc. It's not about taming. I understand suspicions towards foreign intentions and resistance, but when dealing with a nonexistent state it seems to me there is a good trade-off in allowing assistance.

IOW, even if an American assisted government were to take over, would it really be worse than the current situation? Couldn't that at least be used as the foundation to build a state to your liking? At least it would maintain central control and give stability to the country, basic services like education and health care can be reestablished, a national army can be reestablished (and maybe including former warlords), etc.

It's an honest question. I'd be interested in hearing your (Somalis) thoughts.

[Xusein]

Originally Posted by Lailax

So to everyone else:

What would you say is necessary to occur in the South for peace to occur? Should Puntland/Somaliland be playing a more/less active role?

The less toxic TFG members and Al Shabab need to negotiate a truce. Both on their own, they are not viable to be states, but at least if they create a power sharing agreement to create a government, I think peace can be achieved. This however depends on the hard-headed attitudes of everyone there which needs to soften. Al Shabab also needs to try to morph into a political party and renounce violence.

As for Puntland/Somaliland: I think they can be more involved in the negotiations, arguably they are better than Djibouti, Ethiopia, or Kenya on this since they have a better cusp on the conflict better. Could also help add points to Somaliland's quest for recognition PR-wise.

The Wikileaks suggests Eritrea is funding Al Shabab, should that be stopped entirely as well.

I don't think that is true...Hisbul Islam perhaps is getting a cut from Eritrea but not Al Shabab. They called the Eritrean government an infidel state a few months ago, and it's been widely acknowledged that most of their arms are secondhand from TFG desertions.

[Ajepako]

Originally Posted by Lailax

I'd take Somalia over Nigeria if that is what you are asking. Less chance of dying by having sex
Nah mate. I fire shots at you because you make it so damn easy.

You are not worth Somalis time and effort to explain. I'd suggest to everyone else to leave Ajepako to his delusions about Somalia and to not bother answering back to his posts. Some people are hopeless cases.

LOL nigeria doesn't even have a high aids rate
this whole argument failed when a failed state, the ONLY in the world, became a beacon of comparison to Nigeria lol

dude Nigeria is better then your country LOL. If you want to insult me personal look for something that make sense

i have a big head and nose. insult my big head and/or nose, but don't come in here trying to act like Nigeria has anything to gain or learn from somalia

[The Nomadic Warrior]

Originally Posted by Ajepako

LOL nigeria doesn't even have a high aids rate
this whole argument failed when a failed state, the ONLY in the world, became a beacon of comparison to Nigeria lol

dude Nigeria is better then your country LOL. If you want to insult me personal look for something that make sense

i have a big head and nose. insult my big head and/or nose, but don't come in here trying to act like Nigeria has anything to gain or learn from somalia

WOW,

You are really starting to show your inferiority complex


I really understand why you post like this against Somalia. See a shrink

[Xusein]

Originally Posted by abesha

Although I don't agree with some of what Ajepako has said, I do concur with him on this point. It almost sounds like people are proud of not allowing any foreign assistance due to the constant "you can never tame Somalis", etc. It's not about taming. I understand suspicions towards foreign intentions and resistance, but when dealing with a nonexistent state it seems to me there is a good trade-off in allowing assistance.

"You can not tame Somalis" is not a point of pride, it is a warning. We don't want more people to die in vain there.

I am just countering on previous acts. There has not been a showing that peacekeeping efforts in Somalia have been a success, they have actually made the solution worse, and there is no allusion that it will change anytime soon. What I am saying here is, the strategy towards Somalia needs to change, as boneheaded as you might think Somalis are in this opinion, I have not heard of anything from any of you guys that would change, other than the false hope that Ugandans will liberate the nation and do what the Americans and Ethiopians have failed to do.

IOW, even if an American assisted government were to take over, would it really be worse than the current situation? Couldn't that at least be used as the foundation to build a state to your liking? At least it would maintain central control and give stability to the country, basic services like education and health care can be reestablished, a national army can be reestablished (and maybe including former warlords), etc.

Well, that is what the TFG is supposed to do, but hey...it isn't working.

If it isn't working with all this international support, it is a fruitless endeavor.

[Lailax]

Originally Posted by Xusein

The less toxic TFG members and Al Shabab need to negotiate a truce. Both on their own, they are not viable to be states, but at least if they create a power sharing agreement to create a government, I think peace can be achieved. This however depends on the hard-headed attitudes of everyone there which needs to soften.

I agree, the fact that both of them support an introduction of aspects of sharia can be a basis to start negotiations and over time perhaps, phase certain parts out.
Decentralization would need to occur, greater autonomy to regions including Puntland. I think that is viable and more than likely to succeed, perhaps put a date to mark when the first elections need to occur after a peace deal is achieved? A goal?

As for Puntland/Somaliland: I think they can be more involved in the negotiations, arguably they are better than Djibouti, Ethiopia, or Kenya on this since they have a better cusp on the conflict better. Could also help add points to Somaliland's quest for recognition PR-wise.

Both Somaliland and Puntland could negotiate better than any of our neighbouring countries. Ethiopia, Djibouti, Kenya all have their own agendas when it comes to negotiation whereas I think both Somaliland and Puntland will only benefit from true peace.
Even if Somaliland becomes Independent, I am in support of retaining ties with Somalia and Puntland. I'd actually support a military agreement, if the South is attacked by any of our prickly neighbours. I'd make an agreement that would mean all regions would have to help, that would help prevent the natural weakening that comes with breaking up a United Somalia.

I don't think that is true...Hisbul Islam perhaps is getting a cut from Eritrea but not Al Shabab. They called the Eritrean government an infidel state a few months ago, and it's been widely acknowledged that most of their arms are secondhand from TFG desertions.

Perhaps but Al Shabab must have foreign investment. Just a matter of finding it and stopping it and how are weapons coming into Somalia? I thought there was an arms embargo