Seattle: 815 Pine | 40 Stories

[jessejb]

Where da crane at? I was told there'd be a crane.

[CityView Jim]

Originally Posted by jessejb

Where da crane at? I was told there'd be a crane.

Schedule says it will go up by end of December. Small lot. They will dig another three weeks or so and then remove the dirt conveyor system prior to planting the crane.

[alexjonlin]

I know they meant "view ordinance," but I could see some of those high rise dwellers using some "view ordnance" to stop new developments that block their views... haha

[antonba]

Originally Posted by Matt the Engineer

No. Just as you don't own your view (unless you went for option 1), there is no taking of your benefit. You were lucky enough up until this point that the person next to you didn't want or couldn't afford to build up. View protection is tantamount to freezing the city in amber. That's not civilized, it's suicidal.

Again, you're talking about never upzoning ever, anywhere in the city. That's an unreasonable expectation. It shouldn't come as a surprise that someday the ever-more-valuable land next to you will grow a building.

Actually I am not saying that at all. I would upzone 1st Avenue through Belltown to unlimited heights. Yes, not 400, not 600, but let the market decide what's best for Seattle. Condos redefining the skyline? Faster, please! Western, and Alaskan should stay the same to provide some breathing space next to the water. So you get a wall of guaranteed Elliot Bay views on 1st.

Then, beyond 1st, I would upzone to... unlimited again! However:
* 1 tower per block
* podiums of 3-6 floors must take up the whole block
* street-side retail required along the whole block on every side
* also, every so often would require larger retail units to allow for more real grocery stores (which we sadly lack in Belltown where I live)
* any plazas, if they exist, must be part of the street-side retail (e.g. seating for retail)

Then, I'd go on about transportation:
* From all streets in Belltown, especially 1st avenue, remove 2 lanes and add them to the sidewalk. Increase the amount of greenery to separate the pedestrian environment from the street.
* Require developers to fund not so much affordable housing, but a rapid transit fund (controversial, I know). The narrower streets don't allow for bus lanes, so the essential transportation system must go underground.

So, in this dream city I just painted we will have much more density, much more street life and vibrancy, and life within the towers will be more pleasant. Don't you think?

Originally Posted by Matt the Engineer

I'd like to hear of a single city where view protection would have achieved this.

San Francisco.

[mhays]

In all that, I'll pick off one of my old favorites. The density you're talking about would merit a fraction of the retail you're talking about, even if it doubled or tripled the overall Belltown density. Though I agree our neighborhood (I'm at Broad) needs a supermarket.

[antonba]

Ok, but don't forget that this vibrancy will attract a lot more people from other neighborhoods too. Right now, most people ask me why I moved to Belltown from Capitol Hill... its bad reputation is still in place... if this revitalizes it, it's not just a tripling of the density, but, say, another doubling on top of that...

[alexjonlin]

Affordable housing in incredibly important. As we make our city more desirable, more people will want to live here, driving housing prices up, and pushing anyone who's not at least upper middle class out of the city. However, a truly great city has a wide diversity of people. We need to preserve and strengthen that diversity as Seattle grows, not take away from it. But we need underground rapid transit too

[Matt the Engineer]

I'm confused. Is that the same Anton that posted earlier about protected views being all but a civil right?

And did you just call SF a terrible city, yet one that could be fixed with view protection?

[antonba]

Originally Posted by Matt the Engineer

I'm confused. Is that the same Anton that posted earlier about protected views being all but a civil right?

And did you just call SF a terrible city, yet one that could be fixed with view protection?

Yes, it's me. To explain further:
* The "protected" views would be all the housing on 1st avenue. If you live on it right now, you're close to having a protected view, but the problem is that there isn't much market inventory with the lousy height limits. Seattle's Elliot Bay views are world class. Kill the zoning and see 600+ foot towers sprout up.
* The rest of the city has no protected views, but is mindful of Cosmo-like situations. Ensure the density is super high by killing the limits, but also ensure some minimal spacing so that people get privacy and there's some "breathings room".


I meant, SF is doing quite well and has some kind of view ordinance where you cannot block somebody's view with new development. It's expensive but the quality of life is high (you can't get something for nothing). Also I see all the new development in SOMA happening on the properties closest to the water first. Presumably once those are built out, any properties on the inside of the city will never expect to have a view that they will lose...

[D Green]

This whole "view protection" thing is just a slippery slope of an argument.

Second of all, Seattle is not "built out" yet. There's nothing to protect (including views) until we've maxed out on our develop-able properties (no more parking lots in DT Seattle).

[antonba]

Originally Posted by D Green

This whole "view protection" thing is just a slippery slope of an argument.

Second of all, Seattle is not "built out" yet. There's nothing to protect (including views) until we've maxed out on our develop-able properties (no more parking lots in DT Seattle).

The market has decided that protected views in particular are valuable - 1521 2nd avenue units sell for $1000+/sq ft - one of the highest rates in Seattle. The building has also won close to 24 awards. Everything in that building is designed around the views. Go check it out.

As I said, there is a hierarchy of needs. Some people don't care about views, some people want exactly that and nothing else.

[D Green]

Like I said, there's nothing to protect, especially not in DT Seattle.

Some people want the best views, just like people want the newest iphone or most recent Windows platform. Does that mean the price right now for the newest things are going to guarantee the value of those things when something newer and better comes out? Not a chance.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by antonba

Ok, but don't forget that this vibrancy will attract a lot more people from other neighborhoods too. Right now, most people ask me why I moved to Belltown from Capitol Hill... its bad reputation is still in place... if this revitalizes it, it's not just a tripling of the density, but, say, another doubling on top of that...

Diffused retail is rarely good enough to draw people from other neighborhoods. If you want to draw people, concentrate it on an avenue or two.

[Rogue Linguist]

Originally Posted by mhays

Diffused retail is rarely good enough to draw people from other neighborhoods. If you want to draw people, concentrate it on an avenue or two.

Exactly. Like Fifth and Sixth and Pike and Pine for the main clothes shopping area, First Avenue for an eclectic mix of tourists, bars, clubs, restaurants, and mom-and-pop shops (think Pioneer Square, Pike Place Market, and Belltown), and maybe Bell Street, Jackson Street, and King Street. Something like that.

[mhays]

There's a place for a good retail strip or two in Belltown as the neighborhood grows. But we're hamstrung by having it spread out on every avenue, so we might never get that strip.

As the neighborhood densifies, it'll probably lose some of its destination aspect except south of Lenora or so. That's because it won't have very much general purpose parking, and won't have good enough transit. Some of the bar crowd north of Lenora will be supplanted by neighborhood-focused retail. I can see rail connections playing a growing role in deciding where retail and nightlife do best in the future. And having a parking garage or two nearby will be a factor. I'm ok with Belltown focusing less on destination visitors actually.

[jessejb]

"Destination visitors" wins the euphemism-of-the-day award.

[mhays]

I can't take credit. "Destination retail" is a common term. People who travel across town for example can be called destination shoppers. Expand that to include the restaurant crowd and you get destination visitors.

[Ruffhauser]

image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr

[velciane]

Crane went up on this bad boy - a friend posted pics on his facebook, will try to grab some and post here later.

[Capitol Hill]

I rode by today on the bus, the crane is up. I'd post a pic, but believe it or not, even afterthos length of time being on this board, I've never figured out how to post a pic. :shrug: