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Old December 14th, 2010, 01:18 PM   #61
crazyknightsfan
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Australia used to have the 'give way to the right' rule. In the 1950s, in New South Wales at least, the 'priority road' system was established where certain arterial roads were given priority at all intersections. These were marked with the signs which are the subject of this thread.

This system was seen to be such a success that it was expanded to all roads - the laws were changed in the 1980s to the 'T-junction rule'. In this rule, you have priority unless you approach a stop or yield (give way in Australia) sign OR if you are on the side-road approach to a T-junction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx☢Power View Post
So, does that mean that in every single intersection, one of the roads has either yield or stop signs? What about a large, suburban grid neighbourhood where all the streets have equal weight? Like this one, what's the rule here?
All intersections in Australia are either governed by signage indicating priority or are subject to the 'T-junction' rule. In general, local governments delegate priority to certain routes based on their local traffic management objectives - sometimes they might mixed it up completely in a gridded area to discourage through traffic by not providing a completely priority road.

For junctions with equal priority, either traffic signals or roundabouts are used. There are only a handful of 'four way stops' in the entire country and these are generally pretty confusing for drivers, doing a good job at discouraging unnecessary through traffic. The NSW Roads & Traffic Authority could not even give me a straight answer on who has priority at such an intersection under our road rules.
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Old December 15th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #62
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This is not entirely correct. Review page 85 / fig. 3 of the NSW road user manual: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...s_handbook.pdf

I.e.: In Australia (like in the US, BTW) the basic rule is that you have to give way for vehicles coming from the right. Not all intersections are signed or are clearly a T-junction.

I must say that the right of way rules was one of the few issues I really disliked when I lived in Sydney. I can't believe that they introduced that stupid T-junction rule as late as in the 1980s. Forcing the drivers to consider whether a junction is of a T-type or not is to ask for troubles (hence the prevalence of "smash repair shops" in Sydney?). The rule about having to yield for vehicles coming from the right is not very logical for a country driving on the left. The problem is that if you want to cross oposing traffic in a junction in order to turn to the right, you all of a sudden have to yield for traffic coming from the left!

To sum up, in an unsigned junction in Australia:
  1. You have to give way to traffic from the left (and right) if you decides that you are on the "stem" of a T-intersection
  2. You have to give way to traffic from the left (i.e. traffic coming from the opposing lane) if you want to turn right
  3. Otherwise you have to give way to traffic from the right!

Clearly, I prefer the continental Europe solution: Always give way to traffic from to the right unless otherwise signed.... (At least some states in the US also have that T-junction exception, but in the US most junctions are signed anyway).
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Old December 15th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #63
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To be honest, I can't think of any unsigned junction in either the UK or in Portugal. In both countries people assume that if there is no give way or stop sign, they have priority, as <> signs in the UK don't exist, and in Portugal are very very very very very very rare, i've only seen one.
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Old December 15th, 2010, 09:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
[....]

Clearly, I prefer the US / continental Europe solution: Always give way to traffic from to the right unless otherwise signed....
Except that's not the US rule, which is assume you have the right of way unless otherwise signed (with the exception of the very rare uncontrolled intersection, and I still don't know how to address the problem of how to tell the difference between an uncontrolled intersection and one where you have the priority over conflicting traffic).
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Old December 15th, 2010, 09:16 PM   #65
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Not sure about PA, but the rules in Minnesota are clearly not in line with what you are claiming. Rule number one on "Right of Way and Yielding":
Quote:
When two vehicles reach an intersection at the same time, and
there is no traffic light or signal, the driver of the vehicle on the
left must yield to the vehicle on the right.
No mentioning of the "Assume that you have the right of way" nonsense; unless you are driving on the "bar" of a T-junction, you always need to check that traffic from the right indeed have a stop or yield sign. But true, most junctions are (alas) signed as you say, but for instance Minneapolis at least used to have uncontrolled junctions in some outer suburban residential streets.
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Old December 15th, 2010, 09:42 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Not sure about PA, but the rules in Minnesota are clearly not in line with what you are claiming. Rule number one on "Right of Way and Yielding":


No mentioning of the "Assume that you have the right of way" nonsense; unless you are driving on the "bar" of a T-junction, you always need to check that traffic from the right indeed have a stop or yield sign. But true, most junctions are (alas) signed as you say, but for instance Minneapolis at least used to have uncontrolled junctions in some outer suburban residential streets.
What I meant was, when you have no signage facing you, you can assume you have the right of way. And as a practical matter the Minnesota law, if taken literally, would require you to look side to side at every intersection to see whether there's an octagonal or triangular side facing the traffic on that street. And by the time you were in a position where you could see the back of that stop or yield sign, you're already in the intersection. And that is neither a "claim" nor "nonsense."
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Old December 15th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
What I meant was, when you have no signage facing you, you can assume you have the right of way.
But this is still untrue. Just for fun, I checked the PA drivers manual. First sentence on "NEGOTIATING INTERSECTIONS", p. 47:
Quote:
The law does not give anyone the right-of-way at intersections; it only says who must yield.
Rule #4:
Quote:
When two vehicles approach or enter an intersection from different roadways at or about the same time, drivers coming from the left must yield to vehicles coming from the right.
PA does not appear to have the T-junction rule, btw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
And as a practical matter the Minnesota law, if taken literally, would require you to look side to side at every intersection to see whether there's an octagonal or triangular side facing the traffic on that street. And by the time you were in a position where you could see the back of that stop or yield sign, you're already in the intersection. And that is neither a "claim" nor "nonsense."
Here your assertion is correct, assuming that you don't slow down a bit, and that is why in fact the US could benefit from having a sign similar in meaning (but probably not appearance) to the Vienna convention yellow diamond sign. Your original claim is still nonsense (see above).
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Old December 15th, 2010, 10:09 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
But this is still untrue. Just for fun, I checked the PA drivers manual. First sentence on "NEGOTIATING INTERSECTIONS", p. 47:


Rule #4:


PA does not appear to have the T-junction rule, btw.

Here your assertion is correct, and that is why in fact the US could benefit from having a sign similar in meaning (but probably not appearance) to the Vienna convention yellow diamond sign. Your original claim is still nonsense (see above).
I have been driving in the United States for nearly 30 years. Which means, among other things, that (1) I know what I'm talking about and (2) I have better manners than to call what other people are saying "nonsense."

I'd report your post, if there were a way to.
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Old December 16th, 2010, 12:08 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
I have been driving in the United States for nearly 30 years. Which means, among other things, that (1) I know what I'm talking about and (2) I have better manners than to call what other people are saying "nonsense."
Good to hear what driving in the US can do to you, I obviously should have stayed longer

However, that kind of argument will not get you very far in the courts, if you at some point happen to bump into someone not heard about the rule of "Penn's Woods". Oh, and by the way, this rule does not make sense because, if everybody followed it, it could obviously lead to accidents in uncontrolled junctions. No need to get offended.
Quote:
I'd report your post, if there were a way to.
You are welcome to, a ban would save me quite a bit of future time

Violation? Stating the facts, and thereby killing a, for some, fascinating discussion. Guilty as accused.....

I hope you will have a nice day, I am definately logging off this thread.
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Old December 16th, 2010, 05:31 AM   #70
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Well, according to the law, I must say that 54°26′S 3°24′E is correct. Like I stated earlier in this thread (regarding Canada, but the law in the US is very similar for the most part), the law here is indeed pretty much identical to Europe or most other countries, for that matter - in an uncontrolled intersection, the vehicle on the right has priority.

The issue is that this "default" is unusable and not really enforceable in practice, exactly because we lack either of these two signs (and their variants):





So yes, in theory, one may encounter a situation in Canada or the US where yielding to the right is required (and, in fact, it seems that there are locations in the US where that is the case, although it doesn't make sense to me).

However, in practice, because determining priority by looking at signs facing the other drivers is silly and dangerous, in most locales people just assume that if they do not have a clear indication to yield (e.g. stop sign, yield sign, etc.) then they must have the right of way. In most places (including here in Ontario) this assumption works because, indeed, virtually all intersections are controlled.

I am of the strong opinion though, that either the "yielding-to-the-right" law is removed from the books, or the aforementioned signs should be introduced. Since the latter will never happen (and it would be impractical to sign every intersection with them when the cross road has a yield or stop sign), then there needs to be guarantee by law that all intersections are controlled.
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Old December 16th, 2010, 07:36 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
This is not entirely correct. Review page 85 / fig. 3 of the NSW road user manual: http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/...s_handbook.pdf
That is an intersection with no signs, not a four-way stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Not all intersections are signed or are clearly a T-junction.
I cannot think of a single intersection I have seen which has no signs or is not a T-junction and I have travelled quite extensively in Australia. Even the most remote public four-way junctions have signage.
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Old July 31st, 2013, 11:34 AM   #72
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necro-post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdly_dood View Post
As an American, and being used to American signage, that sign tells me:
HEY!

It specifies no specific hazard, just the vague possibility that somewhere ahead your vehicle may be compelled to force-feed you the windshield and/or steering wheel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That's not weird, since you're not used to such signs. However, once you understand its meaning, you can drive in several dozen countries which have maybe over 60 languages and still understand the signs. That's the whole concept. Such a thing doesn't work in the United States, which is almost as large as a continent, with fewer foreign vehicles with drivers that do not understand English and a large amount of the population who will never go to a country with another language in their entire life.
It has nothing to do with language barriers (or Vienna), rather that here in the States we have a very similar sign which delineates roadway obstructions:
supporting language from the MUTCD: http://www.mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/20...tm#section2C64
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Old July 31st, 2013, 12:03 PM   #73
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A disambiguos case:

here are in north-eastern Italy, on a provincial road (similar to a county road) that ended at the ahead roundabout, but here there is the sign of end priority road.
So the local (urban) collector street who merge from right has the priority, because of right-hand priority rule
But this is a problem because the vehicle that are on principal road think to have the priority and it's dangerous becuase often the driven didn't seen the sign
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Old July 31st, 2013, 09:47 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn-mann View Post
A disambiguos case:

here are in north-eastern Italy, on a provincial road (similar to a county road) that ended at the ahead roundabout, but here there is the sign of end priority road.
So the local (urban) collector street who merge from right has the priority, because of right-hand priority rule
But this is a problem because the vehicle that are on principal road think to have the priority and it's dangerous becuase often the driven didn't seen the sign
This seems rather misplaced. I'm guessing the road coming from the right has a lot more traffic and is considered the through road even though it doesn't look like that from the road layout. In that case, I can agree that it's logical, and it removes all ambiguity (as long as people pay attention and know the rules).

Also, the house at the end of the block has a face.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 12:47 PM   #75
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Quote:
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This seems rather misplaced. I'm guessing the road coming from the right has a lot more traffic and is considered the through road even though it doesn't look like that from the road layout. In that case, I can agree that it's logical, and it removes all ambiguity (as long as people pay attention and know the rules).

Also, the house at the end of the block has a face.
The street merging from right doesn't have more traffic, and is long a hundred yards...
The principal road (who have to give the way to the minor), actually is a Provincial road, but until 15 years ago was a state road (and the heavy traffic from the near motorway came from here...
It's absurd that a major road have to give way to a minor urban street
This is the place https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Montec...331.04,,0,4.71
What house have a face?

Last edited by Autobahn-mann; August 1st, 2013 at 12:51 PM. Reason: edit links
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Old August 1st, 2013, 01:28 PM   #76
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Rule of the right hand should be long gone all over the Europe, it's primitive and sometimes really confusing, I can't figure out why it's so popular and commonly used here in Germany when it causes so many accidents.
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Old August 1st, 2013, 02:05 PM   #77
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If there are no signs, there has to be a rule, doesn't it? And I don't think only Europe has it. AFAIK, Australia has it too and I think priority goes to the one coming from the right (despite driving on the left).
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 11:27 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SturmBeobachter View Post
Rule of the right hand should be long gone all over the Europe, it's primitive and sometimes really confusing, I can't figure out why it's so popular and commonly used here in Germany when it causes so many accidents.
Unlike the ignorance of drivers this simple rule is neither primitive nor does it cause collisions.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 01:07 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn-mann View Post
The street merging from right doesn't have more traffic, and is long a hundred yards...
The principal road (who have to give the way to the minor), actually is a Provincial road, but until 15 years ago was a state road (and the heavy traffic from the near motorway came from here...
It's absurd that a major road have to give way to a minor urban street
This is the place https://maps.google.it/maps?q=Montec...331.04,,0,4.71
What house have a face?
I also live in NE Italy but I never saw anything like this. The main road has always the priority.
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Old August 2nd, 2013, 08:31 PM   #80
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I also live in NE Italy but I never saw anything like this. The main road has always the priority.
But how do other drivers on the main street know they are on the main street. It there was no sign, it should be according to common traffic rules intersection with the right of way from the right.
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