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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 7th, 2011, 03:52 PM   #2221
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Originally Posted by slipperydog View Post
And what exactly are you proposing was his 'political' message? Why would the far right be concerned about a project whose cost overruns and operational costs were 100% covered at no risk to the taxpayer? I'm anxious to hear you explain the political ideology there.
You may have noted that this is a pretty hard left leaning forum. The response to you will no doubt question the Governor's intelligence, hit the tea party with the usual talking points, malign the GOP and strongly suggest that protecting oil companies is what is behind this decision. It will make very little sense but it will be amusing to read.

I really wish that our Government, if they are serious about this HSR thing (which I DO NOT believe they are), would do the smart thing and pour the resources into building this between Boston and DC. They are GUARANTEED ridership, the line would actually make profit, and it would show the viability for this service where applicable. Tampa to Orlando funding simply shows that the feds are still up for wasting money in politically opportune areas if the party in charge thinks it will garner votes. Yes, it would create jobs, but so would spending this money on fixing the million crumbling bridges we have in this country.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 03:53 PM   #2222
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Wasn't Rick Scott elected saying he'd do exactly what he just did?
Don't confuse the issue by stating facts, lol.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 04:00 PM   #2223
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Wasn't Rick Scott elected saying he'd do exactly what he just did?
Nah, his message was creating jobs and improving the economy. He did a 180 right here by shooting down thousands of jobs and making this state losing billions of dollars in investment.

Your comment was far from fact.

He also said he wouldn't target the education system and he has done otherwise.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 05:40 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by slipperydog View Post
I'm well aware of what Acela really is. So name the estimated travel price and the time of your proposed HSR train. If it beats Jetblue on one or both, you're in business. If not, HSR is bunk.
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Actually, when someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them to produce evidence validating said claim.
So you claim something which I point out is invalid, then somehow I'm the one making a claim am I?

No I won't name any estimated travel prices, I don't care. I'm just pointing out you are wrong, which you appear to admit. Its your country your taking down the pan, not mine.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 05:52 PM   #2225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFish View Post
Don't confuse the issue by stating facts, lol.
Facts? I see no facts anywhere in the comment you quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFish View Post
You may have noted that this is a pretty hard left leaning forum. The response to you will no doubt question the Governor's intelligence, hit the tea party with the usual talking points, malign the GOP and strongly suggest that protecting oil companies is what is behind this decision. It will make very little sense but it will be amusing to read.
Here's the funny thing, saying that about Rick Scott and the anti-rail GOP would be telling the truth.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 06:20 PM   #2226
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Simple, this was a project thanks to Barack Obama and neither Rick Scott nor the Tea Party wanted the state to accept $2.4 Bil. from a socialist president hell bent in destroying this country. Look at who he showed his proposed budget to, the Tea Party. They what, represent 10% of Florida? He listened to the Tea Party, they got what they wanted, and now the state has to look at California and the Northeast and say "that could have been us".
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Here's the funny thing, saying that about Rick Scott and the anti-rail GOP would be telling the truth.

LMAO, that's great stuff there. "Anti-rail", huh? That's a new one.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 06:32 PM   #2227
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LMAO, that's great stuff there. "Anti-rail", huh? That's a new one.
But it is accurate.

There is now a movement of anti-rail conservatives. One example would be an article written by George Will about how rail goes against American freedoms.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 06:52 PM   #2228
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But it is accurate.

There is now a movement of anti-rail conservatives. One example would be an article written by George Will about how rail goes against American freedoms.
Theres a growing number of Northeastern Conservatives that are in favor of restoring Regional Intercity Rail , but are anti-HSR. Its a start though...
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Old March 7th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #2229
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But it is accurate.

There is now a movement of anti-rail conservatives. One example would be an article written by George Will about how rail goes against American freedoms.
Rail, in and of itself, is not what irks the right. It's the continous government spending, in spite of record deficits, on questionable projects and a general sense of throwing good money after bad just for the sake of politics, and all with 2012 on the horizon in a key battleground state. It's basically just earmarking on a larger scale, a practice which both sides agreed to eliminate back in December. Now if we shut down most of Amtrak's money-burning long-haul routes, maybe we could start looking at alternatives that make sense. If this was a politically-motivated stunt by Scott, as many claim, canceling a popular project was not a smart way to go about it. If the cost overruns and operational costs really were guaranteed to be covered 100% at no threat to the taxpayer, the Tea Party would have no problem with it. So it's highly doubtful this was about politics.

I am intrigued by that article by Will. Could you post a link?
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Old March 7th, 2011, 07:52 PM   #2230
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That Amtrak has a terrible financial record only helps opposition to HSR. It is a very bad precedent of government involvement on rail service. As I wrote on this thread before, long-distance routes have an OPERATIONAL loss averaging ca. 60% of its costs.

If they agreed to ditch subsidized tourist trains (essentially, all transcontinental routes that are useless for real transportation + most of long-distance routes too slow to even compete with cars and buses), they could start building a case for increased public goodwill.

Amtrak could also commission a serious detailed study of a Boston-NYC-Washington true high-speed corridor mixing severely upgraded sectors and entire new ROW.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 08:33 PM   #2231
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That Amtrak has a terrible financial record only helps opposition to HSR. It is a very bad precedent of government involvement on rail service. As I wrote on this thread before, long-distance routes have an OPERATIONAL loss averaging ca. 60% of its costs.

If they agreed to ditch subsidized tourist trains (essentially, all transcontinental routes that are useless for real transportation + most of long-distance routes too slow to even compete with cars and buses), they could start building a case for increased public goodwill.

Amtrak could also commission a serious detailed study of a Boston-NYC-Washington true high-speed corridor mixing severely upgraded sectors and entire new ROW.
They did , its a plan to build half a New NEC and upgrade and enhance 3,000 miles of Northeastern Intercity corridors... Thats on top of the 18,000 miles of regional Rail planned , and 700 miles of Urban Rail.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 09:07 PM   #2232
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Originally Posted by slipperydog View Post
Rail, in and of itself, is not what irks the right. It's the continous government spending, in spite of record deficits, on questionable projects and a general sense of throwing good money after bad just for the sake of politics, and all with 2012 on the horizon in a key battleground state. It's basically just earmarking on a larger scale, a practice which both sides agreed to eliminate back in December. Now if we shut down most of Amtrak's money-burning long-haul routes, maybe we could start looking at alternatives that make sense. If this was a politically-motivated stunt by Scott, as many claim, canceling a popular project was not a smart way to go about it. If the cost overruns and operational costs really were guaranteed to be covered 100% at no threat to the taxpayer, the Tea Party would have no problem with it. So it's highly doubtful this was about politics.

I am intrigued by that article by Will. Could you post a link?
Here's a link to the Will column. I'm with him on the first half of it, the second half is pure ideology and even for this Conservative is a bit over the deep end.

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/02/27/h...nsolvency.html

Look, this is ALL politics on both sides. Anyone with half a brain running Amtrak would kill about half the routes, but they can't do that. Politicians on both sides have hissy fits whenever chopping service in thier district is brought up. Also, anyone with half a brain knows folks aren't going to invest a huge amount of money to take a high speed train from Tampa to Orlando or vice versa when they know that the car will get them to the ultimate destination faster. Additionally, anyone with half a brain knows this won't get enough cars off the road to make even the slightest dent in the fossil fuel consumption down there, especially when you realize they have to get the power to run the thing from somewhere.

If I'm the Gov down there I am doing the same thing. First, I'm going to try to keep those funds in order to fix and upgrade the infrastructure I already have. When the Feds won't go for that I send the money back. Let them try this experiment somewhere else first.

This is going to get built somewhere. Let it be California. You folks out there are hell bent on going bankrupt as a state anyway. This will just help you down that road.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 11:10 PM   #2233
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This is going to get built somewhere. Let it be California. You folks out there are hell bent on going bankrupt as a state anyway. This will just help you down that road.
No no no no no. You see, that's not going to happen. Allow me to enlighten you on what will happen. California will see greater investment and greater job growth. Florida, on the other hand, will stagnate. They will pay dearly for this, in terms of lost potential revenue and a young population that will soon be leaving in droves for States with better economic opportunities. Rick Scott dug his States' grave just to appease some ideological purists.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 11:44 PM   #2234
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Florida will stagnate? Because a train doesn't get built? Young people will leave Florida because a train doesn't get built?

Have you ever been to Florida?
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Old March 8th, 2011, 02:01 AM   #2235
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Florida will stagnate? Because a train doesn't get built? Young people will leave Florida because a train doesn't get built?

Have you ever been to Florida?
Its economy is based soley on Tourism and fueled by drugs / corruption.... Schools and Heath services are terrible....
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Old March 8th, 2011, 02:05 AM   #2236
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Its economy is based soley on Tourism and fueled by drugs / corruption.... Schools and Heath services are terrible....
The notion that building a train will somehow fix those problems is probably the most ludicrous thing I've read on these boards.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 02:11 AM   #2237
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Just give us the damn funds so we can build our HSR already. We will set a good example for HSR in this nation, and we will set the bar high for other systems to be built. All the construction crews will pump money wherever they lay tracks since, well, they have to eat, drink, and buy Chinese lead paint crap as well. They put their money into the local economies, and waddya know, we would witness rebounding local economies wherever the construction is. People are shortsighted. We think in the short term. It's an inherent human trait from evolution: we don't worry about potential food or water problems one year, two years, ten years from now: we worry about what food and water we have today. Oil will run out someday. HSR will be the solution, along with city transit systems, when cars are prohibitively expensive to operate and you might as well be a damned millionaire to buy a plane ticket. While I never really agreed with the Florida HSR, it's your loss, Wisconsin. Give us your funds; we'll do it right.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 02:51 AM   #2238
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The notion that building a train will somehow fix those problems is probably the most ludicrous thing I've read on these boards.
Well the railway towns here faired better during the recession then the auto towns and creates jobs and stimulates growth....its not that hard to see...
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Old March 8th, 2011, 04:58 AM   #2239
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Anyone with half a brain running Amtrak would kill about half the routes, but they can't do that. Politicians on both sides have hissy fits whenever chopping service in thier district is brought up. Also, anyone with half a brain knows folks aren't going to invest a huge amount of money to take a high speed train from Tampa to Orlando or vice versa when they know that the car will get them to the ultimate destination faster.

This is going to get built somewhere. Let it be California. You folks out there are hell bent on going bankrupt as a state anyway. This will just help you down that road.
Funny, you whined about conservatives getting treated poorly on here then post this condescending rant to all supporters of non-oil based transportation.

Amtrak operates on a shoe string budget and the money it "loses" (as if a public benefit needs to generate a profit) PALES in comparison to the interstate highway system. I've yet to see any evidence it generates a profit.

If we are going to shut down the lightly used Amtrak routes, then we need to shut down the interstates in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and any other lightly populated interior state because the use those roads get surely does not justify their exorbitant cost.

Please tell me how a car traveling on a chronically choked Interstate 4 is going to get from Orlando International Airport to DT Tampa faster than a train with a top speed of 168 mph.


HSR isn't going to bankrupt California. It will not be funded with general tax revenues. Name one state that doesn't have budget problems. Conservative Heaven Texas has a $27 BILLION budget deficit.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 05:01 AM   #2240
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Hah, damn you are one angry dude. I don't know, maybe it's because you live in Indiana. Now since this is the HSR forum, it would be best to stay on topic, but I'll say this. I know virtually nothing about Indiana, nor do I care to. But just because someone shows reservation about certain HSR lines, doesn't necessarily mean they advocate building any and all roads. Any person interested in a reasonable debate understands that fact. So let's leave some random highway being built by a bunch of obese, uneducated rednecks out of this. Some roads are good investments, some are bad. Some HSR is good, some shows little promise.
Proudly ignorant, obnoxious AND insulting. You are the perfect conservative!
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