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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 16th, 2007, 04:10 PM   #221
miamicanes
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I look at it this way: the current problem with maglev is less a matter of technology than a matter of cost. If China -- a country with both the technology to make maglev work and some of the lowest labor & materials costs in the world, with a government capable of forcibly smoothing over any political problem it encounters -- can't do it cost-effectively, the chances that any state in America or country in Europe (where EVERYTHING, from land to labor and intellectual property royalties, is going to cost a LOT more) can pull it off is 'nonexistent'.

The ONLY economically-viable use for maglev I can see in the US anytime in the next 25 years MIGHT be if a new airport were built 20-30 miles east of New York somewhere in Long Island, and a maglev line with a station in midtown Manhattan, another along the line in Queens, a station at the new airport, and one last station a mile or so from the airport one, but in a location more convenient for massive numbers of commuters using it to turn a 20-30 mile commute into a 10 minute expensive trip. And even THAT scenario is kind of a stretch.
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Old April 16th, 2007, 04:32 PM   #222
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they will build a maglev from the munich airport to the central station. u need then 10 minutes istead of 40 with the subway.
the 38km long munich track will cost 1,7 billions €. the 900 (!) km long track from tehran to mashhad will cost only 6,7 billions. I think ure right!
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Old April 16th, 2007, 04:45 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
I have been tracking the development of high speed railways in Asia and Europe since the 1960’s and I have never seen a vision or a plan for a “European High Speed Rail Network”. The current “”EHSRN”” is a pastiche of individual national development programs which reflect local problems, peer pressure and local politics. France, for example, has a plan which is subject change with every new government and the availability of Swiss, Italian and Spanish government funds.
If the EU is not prepared to put in the money then there is no reason why governments should put the interest of their nations behind in favour of a wider european vision/plan. In Portugal's particular case only 10% of the funding for our TGV network will come from the EU so it is obvious that with each passing government the network layout changes to suit their vision for the country better.
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Old April 16th, 2007, 05:48 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fern View Post
If the EU is not prepared to put in the money then there is no reason why governments should put the interest of their nations behind in favour of a wider european vision/plan. In Portugal's particular case only 10% of the funding for our TGV network will come from the EU so it is obvious that with each passing government the network layout changes to suit their vision for the country better.
I agree.
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Old April 17th, 2007, 11:40 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Montreal-New York should be built, but only after the Windsor-Quebec City route is built. Eastern Canada is falling further and further behind wealthier jurisdictions like Alberta and Texas. It is vital that this line be built.

You would think with the world's #1 rail equipment manufacturer (Bombardier) based in Montreal, that ground would have been broken already.

It has been proven time and time again that transportation infrastructure determines what geographical areas, and by extension cities, prosper and grow the most.

Montreal was at one point the most important city in the New World. It won't get back there any time soon, but you have to take the first step some time.
Ya, I always wondered where new, sleak Bombardier trains ran in Canada! It must not be like Alstom in France = French TGV or Siemens in Germany = German ICE.

And ya, I would think that with HSR between NYC and Montreal, there would be an increase in travel between both cities, afterall, both cities are international, interesting to many people, etc. However, I don't know how they play out with business traverlers. I don't know what they business profile is between both cities. In any case, businesses could use this as a favorable factor.

Now I measure on Google Earth a distance of 244 straight miles between Paris and Lyon, France and 330 straight miles between Montreal and NYC...that's 86 more miles for the American counterpart...but then again, more people live in Greater NYC than Greater Paris and more people live in Greater Montreal than Greater Lyon...so I'm thinking 86 additional miles isn't too much in this case. And now remember, the Paris-Lyon TGV is direct...it doesn't stop at any intermediate city on the way...that puppy runs mainly through rural Burgandy and that didn't stop the French from building a TGV line there just because they couldn't justify service to a 3rd or 4th city along the way...if anything, I think the directness makes it feasible, as Lyon is one of the speediest TGV lines.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 12:09 AM   #226
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[QUOTE=edubejar;12716501]Ya, I always wondered where new, sleak Bombardier trains ran in Canada! It must not be like Alstom in France = French TGV or Siemens in Germany = German ICE.
QUOTE]

They don't, the Bombardier LRC's on the Montreal <> Toronto corridor entered service in early 1980's. The sleek new trains run in Boston <> Washington corridor

Last edited by Trainman Dave; April 18th, 2007 at 12:16 AM.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 12:14 AM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edubejar View Post
Now I measure on Google Earth a distance of 244 straight miles between Paris and Lyon, France and 330 straight miles between Montreal and NYC...that's 86 more miles for the American counterpart...but then again, more people live in Greater NYC than Greater Paris and more people live in Greater Montreal than Greater Lyon...so I'm thinking 86 additional miles isn't too much in this case. And now remember, the Paris-Lyon TGV is direct...it doesn't stop at any intermediate city on the way...that puppy runs mainly through rural Burgandy and that didn't stop the French from building a TGV line there just because they couldn't justify service to a 3rd or 4th city along the way...if anything, I think the directness makes it feasible, as Lyon is one of the speediest TGV lines.
This is a fundemental mistake about the operation of the TGV trains. There is capacity for 15 trains per hour between Paris and Lyon but only 2 or occasionally 3 actually travel between Paris and Lyon the other 12 travel to 20+ destinations in eastern and southern France. I think that about 50% of the french population are in fact served by the trains which run LGV-se which runs from Paris to Lyon. A High Speed Line New York to Montreal would not have many secondary markets to serve.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 02:20 AM   #228
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^Do you mean 15 per hour per direction?
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Old April 18th, 2007, 06:23 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
I wonder how such a poll was done. Americans may prefer to fly or drive everywhere and everywhere, but their habits are destroying not just their own environment, but that of the World as well.

If the people of Asia- or Europe- emulated the American lifestyle the US apparently invaded the Middle East in order to promote (Democracy at the barrel of a guided missile) the earth's climate would be spiralling vastly faster into chsos than it already is ... but Americans still insist on taking a tonne of steel with them every time they go to the supermarket.

Forget about the broadsheet press here: even the tabloids are reporting that hundreds of American scientists were threatened or silenced by the US Government regarding climate change.

So Americans would like to fly if they can't drive. Big deal. Australians don't want to drink treated sewerage, but, as it evolves, they have to. Why? sorry, but this was all on the cards forty years ago.
Lol, so angry. I agree with what you said, but you know, Americans haven't gotten to that stage yet, and knowing the way things work around here, they wont change their minds until it's too late.

Being in America, it's like I said before, people in general don't have the drive to do something very out of the way, and this is everywhere around the world, not just in America. If the planners didn't have the foresight to cater to the people's needs, then the people will fill the niche by themselves.

It's hard not to lug a ton of steel with us when we go to the supermarket. The nearest supermarket is 20 minutes away by walking, and the buses don't even come by here. The local shuttle only comes once an hour.

Tabloids report a lot of things that aren't true (and a lot of things that are but the mainstream media don't) hard to determine the validity of tht, but it's probably true.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 10:39 AM   #230
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Maglev Maglev Maglev Maglev it would be sick if they built the montreal-NYC route and the toronto-montreal part of the Canadian corridor at the same time.
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Old April 18th, 2007, 02:37 PM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kub86 View Post
^Do you mean 15 per hour per direction?
Yes.
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Old April 19th, 2007, 11:09 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
This is a fundemental mistake about the operation of the TGV trains. There is capacity for 15 trains per hour between Paris and Lyon but only 2 or occasionally 3 actually travel between Paris and Lyon the other 12 travel to 20+ destinations in eastern and southern France. I think that about 50% of the french population are in fact served by the trains which run LGV-se which runs from Paris to Lyon. A High Speed Line New York to Montreal would not have many secondary markets to serve.
I reread your post several times but I'm not sure I understand what you meant by "mistake"...if it's the mistake of the French Railways to not service Lyon more than 2 or 3x an hour (based on the 15 trains/hr capacity you talk about) or if it's the mistake that some of us make in not realizing that the Paris-Lyon line is in fact used for more than Lyon, since it extends as the Méditerannée line onto southeastern France (Valence, Nîmes, Arles, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence, Marseille, but also Montpellier, Perpignan and Nice). I think you were more likely referring to this latter, since I can't see why anyone would suggest that more than 2 or 3 trains per hour are needed for Lyon, except for maybe one extra.

However, wasn't the Paris-Lyon line first made without servicing cities further south? The Méditérannée TGV service didn't kick in until much later, so there were only Paris-Lyon trains running along the Paris-Lyon line for a while.

Couldn't Toronto be that other Canadian city beyond Montreal?
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Old April 20th, 2007, 11:50 PM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edubejar View Post
I reread your post several times but I'm not sure I understand what you meant by "mistake"...if it's the mistake of the French Railways to not service Lyon more than 2 or 3x an hour (based on the 15 trains/hr capacity you talk about) or if it's the mistake that some of us make in not realizing that the Paris-Lyon line is in fact used for more than Lyon, since it extends as the Méditerannée line onto southeastern France (Valence, Nîmes, Arles, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence, Marseille, but also Montpellier, Perpignan and Nice). I think you were more likely referring to this latter, since I can't see why anyone would suggest that more than 2 or 3 trains per hour are needed for Lyon, except for maybe one extra.

However, wasn't the Paris-Lyon line first made without servicing cities further south? The Méditérannée TGV service didn't kick in until much later, so there were only Paris-Lyon trains running along the Paris-Lyon line for a while.

Couldn't Toronto be that other Canadian city beyond Montreal?
The mistake is just considering a single city pair!

No matter how you look at it, there are probably only three significant destinations beyond Montrteal: Quebec, Ottawa & Totonto (a very long way arround). In the case of all the LGV lines in France there many more destinations than just three. Long before the French built the LGV to Marseille, TGV trains were running from Paris to Marseille, Montpellier, Nice, Milan, Annecy, Geneve, Lausanne and to many intermediate destinations. Infact when the eastern LGV is opened. It will be possible to count the major cities in France which do not Have TGV service on the fingers of two hands.
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Old April 21st, 2007, 01:44 AM   #234
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On the topic, Canada is planning to have its first HSR corridor between Edmonton and Calgary. The province has just bought the land for ROWs. The plan is to actually have it built in 20-30 years.
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Old April 22nd, 2007, 06:08 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fern View Post
If the EU is not prepared to put in the money then there is no reason why governments should put the interest of their nations behind in favour of a wider european vision/plan. In Portugal's particular case only 10% of the funding for our TGV network will come from the EU so it is obvious that with each passing government the network layout changes to suit their vision for the country better.
You have some point, but its not as bad I think. Even though the EU funding makes up only a part of the total costs, at least in Austria, the argument "part of the EU priority plan" is a quite strong one.

And the perhaps most important point, the European railways are thanks to EU initiatives on a good way to become far more compatible. The new railguiding system will be a European one, and replace the dozen old incompatible ones. Just to name an example.

Furthermore EU regulations made it possible that now railways are able to run a train the entire trip long if they choose to do so, its not obligatory to let the other national service to take over the train.


Still its true, national egoism still dominates. But I think things get better.
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Old April 22nd, 2007, 09:02 PM   #236
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You have some point, but its not as bad I think. Even though the EU funding makes up only a part of the total costs, at least in Austria, the argument "part of the EU priority plan" is a quite strong one.

And the perhaps most important point, the European railways are thanks to EU initiatives on a good way to become far more compatible. The new railguiding system will be a European one, and replace the dozen old incompatible ones. Just to name an example.

Furthermore EU regulations made it possible that now railways are able to run a train the entire trip long if they choose to do so, its not obligatory to let the other national service to take over the train.


Still its true, national egoism still dominates. But I think things get better.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 12:04 AM   #237
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Americans love there cars, i dont think small towns would like it if the hst would pass thru there city without a stop!!

The same injustice they got with the Interstate in the 50's.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 04:57 AM   #238
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Few people really "love" their cars. What they really love is what the cars afford them - privacy, control, point to point efficiency, space, and security. So you can't really develop an effective transit system without either adddressing those needs or finding niches where those needs either arn't as important or people are willing to sacrifice.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 09:03 PM   #239
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Americans love there cars, i dont think small towns would like it if the hst would pass thru there city without a stop!!
Well, if the HSR were really ISR in the 100-110mph range built within an existing rail corridor, there's nothing the small town could really do to stop it since everything involved can legally be done under FRA rules as a matter of right, without needing to get special permits from anyone. Faster trains (requiring grade separations, new ROW, etc) would give those small towns a lot more leverage.

The thing is, if it's done RIGHT (with offline stations, at least in the small towns), there's no reason why there can't be lots of trains that stop only at the big cities along the way, and maybe 2-4 trains per day that hit every single station.

In the Florida context, there might be...

* a FEW trains per day that go straight from Miami to Orlando, skipping every station in between

* 4-6 trains per day that go Miami->Fort Lauderdale->Boca Raton/Deerfield->WPB, then the stations between Auburndale (where a train coming north from Miami would turn left towards Tampa or right towards Orlando) and Tampa.

* a LOT of trains that hit Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton/Deerfield Beach, West Palm Beach, skip the small towns in central Florida along the route, then hit the stations between Auburndale and Orlando (with a few possibly continuing all the way to Daytona and Jacksonville). Passengers could also get to Tampa by getting off at Auburndale and boarding the next Orlando->Tampa train 15-30 minutes later.

* 3 or 4 trains per day in each direction (or more likely, one physical train that just keep running back and forth all day) between West Palm Beach and Auburndale (maybe Ocala or some northwestern suburb of Orlando) that stop at all of the small towns (Sebring, Winter Park, Okeechobee, etc) in between that the main trains skip. In addition, the last train of the day (if it's ultra late and has few passengers anyway) might stop at the small-town stations to drop off passengers without checked baggage (if any). From WPB, the small-town passengers could either wait and transfer to a "main" train, or (more likely) just take Tri-Rail the rest of the way. Ditto, for the Orlando-bound.

As far as people loving their cars... that's true up to a point (say, 90-150 minute drives). But there's also a point where boredom and dread start to kick in, and rail becomes increasingly appealing... especially if passengers can safely leave their cars parked overnight or longer at the station, do their rental car paperwork and get their keys (or at least a code that opens a safe at the destination) while they're still on the train, and the whole thing is as convenient and ceremony-free as possible.
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Old April 29th, 2007, 10:27 AM   #240
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Why don't you guys come to Japan and see the marvel of the Japanese Rail system.
The Tokaido Shinkansen went into operation in 1964 and after 40 odd years it is still packed from the first train leaving Tokyo at 6AM till 10PM the last train to leave. A train either an express or a Kodama that stops at every station pulls in/leaves every 3~10 minutes.
The Sanyo Shinkansen which extends to Kyusu from Osaka connected to the Tokaido is also packed. The price is about $130US one way from Tokyo central to Osaka central with a distance about 500Km and the ride is about 2.5 hours.
The extra leg to Hakata from Osaka is about the same distance of 500Km taking about the same time.
The average daily passanger amount is 510,000 person combined.
The Tohoku shinkansen from Tokyo to Yaheto is also about 600Km and the price is little more than a $100US which went into partial service in 1971.
The total daily passanger amount for the Tohoku Shinkansen is 220,000 passangers.
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