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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 11:57 PM   #3161
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Deflecting blame and playing conspiracies, the past time of socialized transport activists since 1920...

Transit companies in US were in dire states well before the automobile became popular. Many had covenants preventing them to raise fares, which was not a problem during Depression years but quickly prevented them from keeping pace with inflation after WW-2.

Many of such transit companies were never profitable first place, and were instituted as means to promote early sprawling to so-called "transit suburbs". Developers would keep fares artificially low to incentive people to buy land plots or rent on tenements in their area.

In many cases, cities were at the time glad someone rip off the aerial wire network and tracks from their streets.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:29 AM   #3162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Developers would keep fares artificially low to incentive people to buy land plots or rent on tenements in their area.
So, basically what MTR - arguably the world's most successful private subway operator - does nowadays?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:36 AM   #3163
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So, basically what MTR - arguably the world's most successful private subway operator - does nowadays?
Yes, but that shouldn't be allowed to happen, it is a monopoly. We need competition in transportation, like multiple bus, trams, subways private systems competing against each other.

Or, in the case of high-speed rail, trains competing with planes and cars and with other trains as well.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 08:28 AM   #3164
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I dont think competition works for things like public transit. Theres only so much demand to go around and its gonna be unprofitable for any companies if they are forced to get a tiny share.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 04:31 PM   #3165
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I'm reading this discussion every now and then, but never replyed before. But this time I couldn't resist...

The need for competition in transportation is because fares can be low and quality will remain high over time. I don't see the problem if an operator is able to offer low fares, because it is also developing real estate and thus creating its own demand. Other people will still be able to build on plots adjacent to the ones of the transportation company.

For example in Tokyo many private railway operators are working this way, creating the best used rail transportation network in the world. There is no monopoly as companies still can built alternative lines to other companies and thus creating competition. As happens in the Odaiba area which is connected by the Yurikamome and Rinkai lines of two different operators.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 07:26 PM   #3166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krnboy1009 View Post
I dont think competition works for things like public transit. Theres only so much demand to go around and its gonna be unprofitable for any companies if they are forced to get a tiny share.

Look what happened to the railroads of the Northeast 100 years ago. There was so much duplication that 6 of them went bankrupt.

Last edited by Don31; May 23rd, 2012 at 09:30 PM. Reason: typo
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:22 PM   #3167
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Quote:
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Look what happened to the railroads of the Northeast 100 years ago. There was so much duplication that 6 of them went bankrupt.
Yes , my county had 12 different railroads all working against each other...abit much....
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Old May 24th, 2012, 03:18 AM   #3168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Yes, but that shouldn't be allowed to happen, it is a monopoly. We need competition in transportation, like multiple bus, trams, subways private systems competing against each other.

Or, in the case of high-speed rail, trains competing with planes and cars and with other trains as well.
Ah yes, let's take MTR, the most succesful company for metro system in the world, and let Suburbanist say how this WORKING system is evil.



Or we can just do what WORKS, despite ideological views.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 05:40 AM   #3169
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Quote:
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Or we can just do what WORKS, despite ideological views.
Monopolies are essentially evil, economically speaking. Imagine if we had a single company controlling all the supply of electricity in a country, or all the cell phone networks, or all the TV channels. Only that this was once the case on most of Europe and quality of such services were abysmal compared to what we have today!

Giving a free card for a transportation agency to invest in real estate is like allowing the master developer of a new suburb to keep control of all food and beverage selling in the area - for instance.

I'd have no problem if, for instance, a competitive, market-based HSR company built some greenfield new subdivisions in the middle of nowhere adjacent to HSR stations, even with some design optimized to provide access via HSR, as long as it SOLD the land/buildings, not rent them as MTR does.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #3170
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I'm confused, is your problem with the fact that they develop in already urbanized areas and increase density, or that MTR owns the land?

I second Silly Walks' motion: do what is shown to work, not what you think ought to.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #3171
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suburbanist you love your straw men. for every example of monopoly transport being a problem you can find another where competition caused a problem. in the uk the cost of operating the railways has increased four-fold since the monopoly was broken up into competing train operators, the prices have more than doubled in real terms and passenger numbers, whilst up, do not reflect the increase in costs or fares.

you really need to turn your entire thought process on its head. you are a top-down thinker, who tries to find details to confirm your big ideas after you've had it, instead of looking at the details and building up from there. your thought patterns are more appropriate for marketing and sales, not operations.
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Old May 28th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #3172
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Old May 28th, 2012, 08:46 PM   #3173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyFish View Post
Why? No being difficult, just interested in your opinion as to why we "need" this.

And at what cost do we need it?

Well, besides Canada all other civilized countries (and a handful of non civilized countries) all have high speed rail, it will bring the US into the 21st century in terms of infrastructure. It will cut down on gas and oil usage for sure, and make airports and highways less crowded etc.

I can't even list all the reasons why it would be a good thing.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 05:48 AM   #3174
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The video's title is kinda misleading, I mean the Acelas were going at a whooping 80mph.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 06:37 AM   #3175
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The video's title is kinda misleading, I mean the Acelas were going at a whooping 80mph.
Its 125mph there...of course not all the trains are doing 125mph....
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Old May 29th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #3176
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And of course, 125mph/200kmh is usually the lowest speed at which trains are considered to be high-speed, though I think for the FRA it's 110mph on upgraded track.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 06:48 PM   #3177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
suburbanist you love your straw men. for every example of monopoly transport being a problem you can find another where competition caused a problem. in the uk the cost of operating the railways has increased four-fold since the monopoly was broken up into competing train operators, the prices have more than doubled in real terms and passenger numbers, whilst up, do not reflect the increase in costs or fares.

you really need to turn your entire thought process on its head. you are a top-down thinker, who tries to find details to confirm your big ideas after you've had it, instead of looking at the details and building up from there. your thought patterns are more appropriate for marketing and sales, not operations.

Quote!!!!!!!!!!
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Old May 30th, 2012, 08:37 PM   #3178
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135mph soon to 160mph and eventually 190-220mph...



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Old May 31st, 2012, 01:48 AM   #3179
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Quote:
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135mph soon to 160mph and eventually 190-220mph...
I really doubt that exact line would be upgraded to 190 MPH. It's incredibly unsafe for high speed rail to be running at full speed next to freight, locals, commuters, etc. They'd probably have to build an entirely new line.
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Old May 31st, 2012, 07:16 PM   #3180
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I really doubt that exact line would be upgraded to 190 MPH. It's incredibly unsafe for high speed rail to be running at full speed next to freight, locals, commuters, etc. They'd probably have to build an entirely new line.
I agree, speeds that fast would definitely require a dedicated right-of-way.
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