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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old June 22nd, 2012, 04:24 PM   #3301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Well the Midwest plan calls for lines to operate next to existing Commuter or Heavy Rail or Freight lines usually with a buffer but never shared even in Chicago. The Tracks would be separate , the New Union Station will be various levels for HSR , Subways , Busway , and Taxis all underground. The lines that are being upgraded now are considered the feeder network for the trunk lines. I'm not sure if these feeder corridors will all be Amtrak operated , some will , but some will be state operated.
I think you're probably the best person to ask about this. But the first phases of the Northeast plan call for just upgrading existing tracks correct?

Assuming that that is true, when do you think we'll see a HSR network in the Northeast that's built from the ground up to be true HSR? So a separate track for 150-200+ mph whatever the speed is.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 05:13 PM   #3302
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Does anyone have news about the California HSR? I googled a lot but the topic seams to have been taken over by articles either talking only theoretically about it or articles only trying to bash it ...

I would like to know if they are already doing anything concrete. Do they already have bought land? The original construction start prediction was september 2012, and that's coming close ... so they should already have bought the land and be in contact with construction companies... any idea which ones will that be?
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 07:41 PM   #3303
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The CA State Assembly is going to vote it soon, I think.

And by "construction start" it means "putting contracts out", but that is usually a quick process in US.
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Old June 22nd, 2012, 09:28 PM   #3304
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The CA State Assembly is going to vote it soon, I think.

And by "construction start" it means "putting contracts out", but that is usually a quick process in US.
From the time the RFP is issued untill a contract is signed is typically about 4 or 5 months, depending on the job's complexity.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 03:01 AM   #3305
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I think you're probably the best person to ask about this. But the first phases of the Northeast plan call for just upgrading existing tracks correct?

Assuming that that is true, when do you think we'll see a HSR network in the Northeast that's built from the ground up to be true HSR? So a separate track for 150-200+ mph whatever the speed is.

First upgrading the tracks and wires which is mostly done , except parts of PA , NJ , DE and MD. Then the signals.....and then some projects like the Gateway Project and Baltimore Tunnel replacement which should be done by 2025....

Then private should come in build the New England NEC which is still disputed...and badly planned in that it bypasses UCONN & Worcester and heads for a small town called Woonsocket then merges into the overcapacity Providence line. What many people think it should do and Amtrak studied this it was cheaper to go this route but RI complained of being left out so they threw in Woonsocket. In truth Rhode Island gets an upgraded Shoreline NEC and a regional rail network which by 2030 would reach Worcester so its not like there left out... Hopefully they change there minds on the New England segment , the Worcester / MetroWest alignment is cheaper since it rides the Interstate Median or ROW except a 15 mi section were it curves...from I-84 to I-90. Worcester is one of the largest cities in New England and deserves more then the planned Mini HSR that would run between Albany and Boston with connections to New Haven via Springfield. The New England NEC will be completely Train separated between Mount Vernon ,NY and just near Boston , about 240 miles....from GCT to Mount Vernon it would share 4 - 6 tracks with Metro North and from Framingham to Boston 3-5 MBTA Commuter Rail tracks... The New NEC operating on its own tracks will hit 220mph+. The route mainly runs next to Interstates the entire way , I-684 , I-84 , I-90....

Now for the Southern NEC , Amtrak plans on building a New HSR track next to the Existing NEC , how this will be possible in NJ idk know. PA , DE , MD are easily...decent amount of room. In NJ there are sections where the NEC is 6 tracks that can easily be extended , its mostly 4 tracks...the Problem areas are from Rahway to New Brunswick where its 4 tracks and no room to Expand. From New Brunswick to Philly you can add or reactivate the abandoned tracks to create a 6 track segment. And From Linden to Newark with some minor improvements like Straightening the NEC at Elizabeth and extending the 6 tracks from Linden to Newark would although for 180mph speeds... So from Philly to Newark Trains would be going 160-180mph..... In Newark trains would slow to 90mph , and curse through the station which is unlikely. A Newark Bypass between the Airport and Portal Bridge would allow Trains to bypass at 130mph at least to the Portal Bridge were it would drop to 100mph to NYC. The Existing NEC in Newark will be grade separated where the Raritan Valley line Merges with the NEC to allow inbound trains to cross over 5 tracks without causing a bottleneck and this with allow for more Western NJT trains and future Amtrak Lehigh trains to be added without causing a bottleneck. From Newark to Kearny the NEC will be 5 tracked , Amtrak getting 2 tracks and NJT 3 tracks. Kearny JCT / Waterfront Connection will be replaced allowing Amtrak to sail through without dealing with NJT , NJT would get 4 Flyovers to connect the Hoboken Network to the NEC instead of the 1 ramp it has now and 2 replaced ramps to connect to the NEC Portal Approach...from the Morristown line and add a switch for Future Kingsland Branch service. Amtrak would merge with the Newark Bypass HSL just north of Kearny JCT.. The Portal Bridges would be replaced with 2 bridges one 3 track bridge for NJT and 2 tracks for Amtrak. The New Tunnels would have a max speed limit of 90-100mph....

From NY Penn Station there would be an underground interchange built most likely grade separated to allow the New NEC to break off and head North to GCT while the existing NEC would head east to Long Island. The New Interchange would be attached to the end of New Penn Station South... Heading East the NEC would exit the East River in Sunnyside , and would be Train separated from the Long Island Railroad and NJT by using New Tracks and a Interchange Under Construction. Metro North would share tracks with them as part of Hell Gate service... From Harold Interlocking to the Hell Gate Bridge the line would be 3 tracked , and Constant Tension Catenary put in to allow speeds up to 125mph...which is underway as we speak end of decade target goal for the whole Hell Gate line upgrade. From the Hell Gate Bridge to New Rochelle JCT , the line would be overhauled , and upgraded to 125mph....Constant Tension , 4 tracked , and 4-7 stations restored as part of Metro North's Hell Gate line. New Rochelle Interlocks will be grade separated to allow Amtrak to sail through @ 125mph without dealing with slow New Haven line trains. From New Rochelle to Norwalk the Wires are almost done being replaced along with Tracks to handle up to 125mph... The Danbury line will have to grade separated to reduce Congestion and allow for the MNRR to add more trains to that Branch. Several Bridges in CT will need to be replaced at the expensive of CT who owns this part of the NEC and by 2030...2 are being replaced although there in Eastern CT along the new NEC... In Bridgeport the Curves need to be Straightened to allow trains to maintain 125mph....current limit is 80mph. From Just East of Bridgeport to New Haven a 4th and 5th track are being re-installed to add capacity... There are plans to create a 4 track section from New Haven Union Station to Springfield line or Knowledge corridor Interchange to free up Capacity although for faster trains.

From Trenton to Philly the NEC will be 6 tracked continuing south from Newark. There is room for 6 tracking in alot of places....the original NEC was 6 to 10 tracks in parts PA and the feeder lines were the same. PA was like Chicagoland when it came to Rail... From Trenton to North Philly the NEC will be 6 tracked , at North Philly near the area where NJT AC line meets the New NEC will split and enter a 19 mile long Tunnel under Philly , with 2 stations one being Market East in the Heart of Philly and the Next would be Philly Airport. Both would be connected to the Regional Rail , Trolley and Subway network in Philly... After the Airport the New NEC would merge back into the NEC and 6 tracking would continue south to just north of Wilmington where it would break off and bypass Wilmington with a Wilmington South station in the Industrial area or future New Downtown. The Reason bypassing Wilmington is it sits on a S curve that limits speed to 70mph....and its only double tracked with very little wiggle room. After the Wilmington Station the line would merge back into the NEC , and from there to MD the NEC would be 6 tracked. A Grade Separation is needed near Newark,DE to allow future Amtrak Downstate service to Ocean City to cross over the NEC. A Loop track is also needed in Newark to allow Septa and Future MARC trains to turn around without disrupting the NEC. Same will be needed for Septa in Trenton.

Once in MD , 2 Bridges will need to be 5 tracked and replaced , 3 tracks for Regional service and MARC and 2 tracks for Amtrak. The MD part of the NEC only needs to be 5 tracked due to less Traffic. When the NEC reaches East Baltimore the New NEC will split and enter a Tunnel which will continue under Baltimore stopping at Charles Center or Downtown Baltimore with connections to Subway , Light Rail and Future streetcar along Bus.... The Existing NEC will be overhauled and the Baltimore Tunnels replaced to speed up service and add capacity... A Grade Separated Interchange will be built just South of Baltimore Penn Station to allow future Warminster MARC service and Amtrak Northwest service to enter and exit the NEC smoothly... The New NEC would emerge in West Baltimore and Merge back into the Existing NEC which would be 5 tracked down to DC. 2 Center Tracks for HSR only , the rest for Amtrak and MARC...the speed limit would be 160-180mph...

Thats just the Trunk line NEC....I will explain on detail the feeders...and regional rail trunks which all play a role in the NEC.
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Last edited by Nexis; June 23rd, 2012 at 02:00 PM.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 03:21 AM   #3306
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The "Northeast Megalopolis" is 400 miles or so long (Boston to DC), just about the same as the San Diego to San Francisco "megalopolis" would be (with 60.4 million people) if they considered it such. Instead they separate it into Northern and Southern CA. When it comes to HSR, since the whole point is to link the 2 urban parts of the state as one, looking at east and west coast (and Great Lakes) magalopoli would make more sense.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 03:31 AM   #3307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
Does anyone have news about the California HSR? I googled a lot but the topic seams to have been taken over by articles either talking only theoretically about it or articles only trying to bash it ...

I would like to know if they are already doing anything concrete. Do they already have bought land? The original construction start prediction was september 2012, and that's coming close ... so they should already have bought the land and be in contact with construction companies... any idea which ones will that be?
The best place to keep up, day to day, with this is http://www.cahsrblog.com/

According to them, the legislature should take up the HSR funding shortly since they finalized the budget yesterday (still has to be voted on next week, though).

The route is finalized and they could be pouring concrete in the Central Valley within months if the legislature releases the money (the $10 billion bond money approved by voters). A recent change was to run HSR on existing tracks in some dense urban areas like between san Francisco and San Jose. In that corridor, CalTrain will be electrified and there may be other upgrades like eliminating some grade crossings but there's no need to acquire new land.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 05:08 AM   #3308
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And From Linden to Newark with some minor improvements like Straightening the NEC at Elizabeth and extending the 6 tracks from Linden to Newark
Those are not minor improvements, they're pretty major actually.

I agree with alot of what your saying here, but just because its on Amtrak's wish list doesn't mean its gonna happen.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 09:02 AM   #3309
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Well, isn't 6 tracks sounds kike an overkill to me? I don't really know the local circumstances, but even busiest european coridors are mosttly not wider than 4 track.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:44 AM   #3310
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Those are not minor improvements, they're pretty major actually.

I agree with alot of what your saying here, but just because its on Amtrak's wish list doesn't mean its gonna happen.
Thats minor , CT is doing and so is PA for around 80-100 Million $... that's feasible...
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 10:45 AM   #3311
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Well, isn't 6 tracks sounds kike an overkill to me? I don't really know the local circumstances, but even busiest european coridors are mosttly not wider than 4 track.
2 for True High Speed Rail , 2 for Regional Express and 2 for Commuter Rail....HSR would be built along side the NEC somehow...
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 01:02 PM   #3312
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My point was/is solely: there was no [decreasing] interest in rail = no investment in rail. Rail is more attractive now (over the last 15-20 years) = more investment and interest going forward.

If China had industrialized 200+ years ago, they would not have been investing heavily in rail, it would have been highways and other projects. That was the only point I ever tried to make: the comparison is a little non-nonsensical; it's not so much a difference in priorities as it is a difference of contexts.

And the data I've seen always shows a sharp decline in investment in infrastructure over time, as saturation occurs (you can only build so many highways, bridges, dams, power grids, etc). That trends can be reversed - i.e. you can increase spending - but eventually will peak again as you complete goals/initiatives/upgrades/etc. You don't just spend infinitely on this stuff...
I still don't see a coherent point, sorry.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 01:42 PM   #3313
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If China had industrialized 200+ years ago, they would not have been investing heavily in rail, it would have been highways and other projects. That was the only point I ever tried to make: the comparison is a little non-nonsensical; it's not so much a difference in priorities as it is a difference of contexts.
I don't think so as England which started the industrialization invests a lot in rail.

Quote:
And the data I've seen always shows a sharp decline in investment in infrastructure over time, as saturation occurs (you can only build so many highways, bridges, dams, power grids, etc). That trends can be reversed - i.e. you can increase spending - but eventually will peak again as you complete goals/initiatives/upgrades/etc. You don't just spend infinitely on this stuff...
This is wrong, it is only valid if the country invested in the infrastructure through irresponsable and unsustainable debt, like Portugal, Greece, etc. Then after some time there is no money to build new things as the country is over-invested and existing infra-structure cannot pay for itself. Portugal has too many highways for example.

If the country did it's homework well, the investment in infra-structure will at least remain at the same % of the GDP, which means it will grow at the same rate as the GDP grows.

Please read here: http://www.erf.be/images/stories/Sta...2011-STATS.pdf

4.1 Investment in inland transport infrastructure 1995-2009
as a percentage of GDP, at current prices

The transport investment for the developed europe stayed at the same 0,8% of GDP, which means it grew a lot, since the GDP grew a lot.

In eastern europe it grew to 2% of the GDP. Only in USA it is very small and in Japan it decreesed (but it was very high before, so it just going back to a more normal level)
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 01:54 PM   #3314
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Northeastern Regional / Intercity Rail Network


The New Haven - Springfield - Brattleboro Corridor is being upgraded to handle speeds of 125mph and will be completely double tracked from New Haven to Vermont which is about 119.08 Miles. The line will stay Diesel for now , but room will be left to Electrify in the future. The Upgrade will also reroute the Vermonter onto a New Route adding 4 new stations and shaving 45-70mins... The line will be rebranded as the Knowledge Corridor and run 10-12 round trip trains between DC/NY to Brattleboro and Interior Vermont. Hartford Union Station could be moved when I-84 is rebuilt as a Tunnel or covered through Downtown Hartford. If this were to happen the station would get 2 Island Platform's and 4 Tracks which would service Boston - NY HSR Trains and Knowledge Corridor trains. Springfield Station would also be rebuilt , although there isn't enough funding to do the master plan yet. New Haven Union Station would receive a European style shield above the platform area. The Projected Ridership for the Commuter and Intercity Rail by 2030 is 64,700....I think that warrants Electrification...which is only expected to cost 150 Million more onto of the 270 Million cost of Upgrading this feeder line.

The Downeaster is being extended 2 stations in Maine , with Maine launching studies to extend it as far North as Bangor. This line will also be upgraded and more sidings added to allow speeds up to 125mph south of Old Orchard Beach via Electrified trains in Push-Pull set. There is no target date for the Speed Increasing projects although the first Extensions to Brunswick,ME should in the Fall of this year. The line will enhancements and Future Commuter Rail and Streetcar feeders in Portland and Massachusetts will see between 6,800 people a day by 2030.

Hudson Valley Empire Service , Will be upgraded to support Speeds of at least 110-125mph , from Schenectady to New York Penn Station. All of the 159 miles between Schenectady and NY will be double tracked and concrete tracks laid to handle the increased speeds. All Stations will receive High Level Platforms and a New Station hall , Schenectady , Hudson & Rhinecliff–Kingston will be upgraded by 2025. A Swing Bridge between Manhattan and The Bronx will have to be replaced to handle all extra trains. New Equipment is being looked into for the faster service whether that is DMUs or the line is Electrified and its push-pulls that haul passengers up and down the line. Projected Ridership with Enhancements and including Hudson line riders by 2030 will be 95,300.

Lackawanna line will run from NewYork Penn or Hoboken Terminal to Binghamton about 195 miles. With 14 stations , a key part of line which will reconnect it to PA is under Construction. Phase 1 will open by 2013 , Phase 2 into PA could be completed by 2019 depending on funding. Once in PA , 70 miles of second track will need to be restored and space made for future Electrification... The Commuter Rail portion will run from New York Penn or Hoboken to Analomink,PA. Amtrak would pick up the rest of the 7 stations which are further apart and in less populated areas to support commuter rail.... The Top speed of this line even with upgrades would be 90mph... The Cost of this line is expected to be between 500-800 Million $ , most of which is the cost of restoring 2 Long viaducts in NJ to handle trains once again. Projected Ridership of the Lackawanna Intercity and Commuter Rail services by 2030 is expected to be 35,600. This line would connect the popular Pocono Ski Resorts and Gateway Parks of the NYC region.... Seeing how this line was dead a few years and all the sudden is under construction gives me hope for other lines.

Lehigh line would run from New York Penn or Hoboken Terminal to Harrisburg via Allentown and Reading,PA. This line would be 168 miles long , and have 11 stations. Of the 168 miles , 70 miles needs double tracking to allow Amtrak , Commuter rail and Freight to all move smoothly...and in some areas of NJ 4 tracking is needed. This line would be Diesel....and have a top speed of 110mph. The Commuter Rail portion of the route would be operated by NJT and is an Extension of Raritan Valley line from High Bridge,NJ to Allentown,PA. The Lehigh Service would connect over 9 Colleges and Universities , Service a population of 1.5 Million and link together numerous Tourist traps between Harrisburg and NY/Hoboken. Projected Ridership for the Intercity & Commuter Rail services is expected to be 54,900. In Reading the line would connect to the future Reading line for Service south to Norristown and Philly and in Harrisburg to numerous Commuter rail lines to Lancaster , York and Carlisle,PA.

Keystone Corridors runs between Philadelphia and Harrisburg , its 104 miles long with 20 stations. 8 stations will be replaced or upgraded to include high level platforms , heated and A/C waiting area and some stations will have cafes and other leased space. The Wires along the Keystone line will be replaced by 2020 with constant tension to allow speeds up 125mph. 3 Grade Crossings will be separated later this decade. From Lancaster to Harrisburg a new Commuter Rail service will share the tracks which plans call for 2 tracks to be restored in some areas to allow for Amtrak and Commuter Rail service to pass by without any issues. Another station will be added between the 26 mi gap between Parkersburg and Lancaster to service the Amish Country which is a huge Tourism trap in that part of PA. Another Station is being considered in West Philadelphia and would have Trolley / Tram Connections. Commuter Rail Service which runs from Philadelphia to Thorndale,PA will be restored to Parkersburg when the New Switches to allow train turning is put in. A New Amtrak and Septa yard will be built in Thorndale in a former Freight yard. Downingtown will see its station move 400 ft to the East and the US 30 Underpass replaced to allow trucks and buses under. The New Station will have a Bus Terminal , Waiting Areas , and High Level platforms. In Philadelphia a Flyover that carries commuter rail service will have to replaced along with upgrades to the Zoo Interchange to allow trains to move faster and without conflicting... All Sub Stations will also be replaced , half of the keystone Corridor is already upgraded. Projected Ridership combining the Intercity and Commuter Rail Services is expected to be 110,000 by 2030.

Downstate Corridor service would run from New York Penn Station to Ocean City,MD , this line would be 122 miles along mostly straight track which would be replaced. This service would 12 stations. Trains would run up to 125mph on this corridor and connect the high population areas to the popular Coastal Gateway areas of Delaware and Maryland... There would be no commuter service on this line just Intercity Rail service. The line would merge onto the NEC in Newark,DE and service other cities and towns in Northern Delaware like Churchman's crossing , Wilmington and Claymont before heading to Philadelphia , Trenton , Newark and New York. Projected Ridership of this line would be 9,400 with seasonal ups and downs.

Northwest line will run for 86 miles between Baltimore and Harrisburg and have 8 stations. The line would service the I-83 corridor and the numerous historic sites and towns in between. The line would also connect into MARC service in Baltimore and with Commuter Rail service in Harrisburg and York. The line would have a top speed of 90mph and could be Diesel or Electric... Projected Ridership on this line combined with future commuter Rail ridership would be 13,000.

Virginia Regional Service , will be Upgraded to Speeds of 125mph and Electrified. The System will one day cover all of Virginia with 610 miles of track , with 10-15 round trips per day along the Main Trunk between DC and Richmond. Richmond to Newport News and Norfolk will see between 10-12 trains a day when the full build is completed. Richmond to Norfolk service is expected to start in December. Regional Service will be extended sometime later this decade from Lynchburg to Roanoke,VA. And all stations will be High level platformed to allow faster boarding and ADA accessibility... The Network currently connects various cities and towns in Virginia and is expected to grow to 120,800 daily riders by 2030 factoring Commuter Rail in Northern Virginia and Norfolk which will be running by then along the Norfolk branch.

Misc Northeastern system upgrades and mini projects to be done by 2030


-All Substations to be replaced
-Voltage on the entire Northeastern network to be brought up to 25 kV AC ,60 Hz
-Newark Penn Station Roof , Platform replacement
-Newark Penn Station platform extension to accomendate 22 cars
-European Style Train shield to cover the Platforms at New Haven Union Station
-South Station 5 Track Expansion and Train Shield
-Baltimore Penn Station Platform and train shield replacement
-All Lower Empire Service stations to be High Level platformed and expanded
-All Downeaster Corridors stations to be High Level platformed and expanded
-Downingtown Station will be moved to make way for a redevelopment and replaced
-Coatesville Station will be replaced as part of the long term Coatesville Plans
-Parkersburg Station will be upgraded to ADA compliance and expanded to handle Septa Service
-All Keystone Service stations will be high level platformed and expanded
-The Beast or Dock Bridges repainting
-New LED Signals to the Entire Northeastern Network
-50 New Acela Cars
-70 New Cities Sprinter Locomotives to replace HHP-8 and AME7 locos operating along the NEC and Keystone corridors
-60 New Amfleet cars for Regional Service not including the New cars for the new feeder lines
-Constant Catenary along the Keystone Corridor
-High Level Platforms to all Septa Stations along Amtrak corridors
-High Level Platforms to all MBTA Stations along Amtrak corridors
-High Level Platforms to all MARC Stations along Amtrak Corridors
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Last edited by Nexis; July 10th, 2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 03:15 PM   #3315
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I still don't see a coherent point, sorry.
Rail wasn't as attractive.

You invest in infrastructure because there's demand for it. Once you build it, that demand goes down, so investment goes down until that demand 1) increases again or 2) moves to something else. It doesn't just infinitely increase...
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 04:13 PM   #3316
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You invest in infrastructure because there's demand for it. Once you build it, that demand goes down, so investment goes down until that demand 1) increases again or 2) moves to something else. It doesn't just infinitely increase...
This is a vague and general statement which doesn't even account to many things like demand induced by offer and modal shift. But let's stick to the topic of the thread: Would there be demand for HSR in the United States in the proposed routes? I think that the answer is a resounding yes.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 05:26 PM   #3317
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It is hard to talk of demand upon service offer if one ignores the costs of the potential service.

Of course if Amtrak put a train tomorrow even at Acela current speeds costing $ 9.95 for a Boston-Washington trip it would be full all day long. But that is not financially sustainable...
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 05:46 PM   #3318
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It is hard to talk of demand upon service offer if one ignores the costs of the potential service.

Of course if Amtrak put a train tomorrow even at Acela current speeds costing $ 9.95 for a Boston-Washington trip it would be full all day long. But that is not financially sustainable...

With the amount of people who would quickly jump at that fare from the Airlines and Cars it would become profitable.. But non of those services will even have fares below 15$....and of course HSR / Feeder is for long distance commuting , commuter rail covers the rest. Most Services that operate in the Northeast via Amtrak are funded by the states and amount to 2-5% of the annual transportation budget and there the only thing that generates a cash flow. Were talking about budgets between 1-3 Billion for mostly roads and maybe 150 Million for Rail. Its not a fair budget and yet Rail still brings in more $$$. But then again who said the fares for the New Acela would even drop ? You seem to go off in all sorts of weird directions. The Revenue that the Final Network will generate is estimated to be 4.5 Billion a year.... Its amazing you never bring up these issues when it comes to roads , but when its Rail its always has to operate on profit or else it shouldn't be built... You sir are a hypocrite...
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:04 PM   #3319
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With the amount of people who would quickly jump at that fare from the Airlines and Cars it would become profitable..
I doubt the marginal costs per passenger would be so low as $9 per one-way Boston-Washington trip. Impossible.

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But then again who said the fares for the New Acela would even drop ? You seem to go off in all sorts of weird directions.
I didn't say. I was making the general case that you can't talk about demand for new transportation infrastructure without factoring in the costs. Whatever the mode (rail, road, air).

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Its amazing you never bring up these issues when it comes to roads , but when its Rail its always has to operate on profit or else it shouldn't be built... You sir are a hypocrite...
Well, I could make the case but cars already pay their way. I mean: cars are private and owners pay insurance, gas and lease/loan.

To make a proper comparison we must separate the infrastructure from the vehicles.
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Old June 23rd, 2012, 07:54 PM   #3320
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I doubt the marginal costs per passenger would be so low as $9 per one-way Boston-Washington trip. Impossible.



I didn't say. I was making the general case that you can't talk about demand for new transportation infrastructure without factoring in the costs. Whatever the mode (rail, road, air).



Well, I could make the case but cars already pay their way. I mean: cars are private and owners pay insurance, gas and lease/loan.

To make a proper comparison we must separate the infrastructure from the vehicles.
All those projects have been deemed feasible and are under 400 Million $$ which in many cases the Highways next to them receive billions for widenings and expansions. The Cost between Boston and NY will be between 180-200$ depending on class...other routes will go between 15-100$. Gas Taxes do not cover half the costs of roads in this country , while Rail often covers half of the costs....amazing isn't it.... When building new Rail lines , they often use the Economy growth and spin off to deem if its feasible or not and all of those projects have been deemed feasible and have alot of local and regional support.
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