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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 2nd, 2012, 10:49 PM   #3521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G5man View Post
Amtrak is letting Parsons do all the talking without conducting its own analysis it seems. If their project manager is doing their job, I would start doing some value engineering by cutting out unecessary concrete and digging. Also, it might help given the long-term timeframe to establish some political cooperation to make this project even cheaper. I would rather continue Richmond down the Atlantic Coast to Miami via Atlanta in order to pick up a nice connection to the Piedmont region and continue to reduce air traffic out of the valuable slots of NYC and Reagan Airports.
Further South than Richmond would probably be a waste of money. Even that far should only be 2nd generation project after the first stretch is in operation. That's how these kinds of things are built elsewhere. Try to do everything at once and you probably won't make anything! Unless you have the kind of money and cheap labor that China can allocate (+ limited opportunity of their population to protest). Not really case anywhere else...
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 12:06 AM   #3522
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Further South than Richmond would probably be a waste of money. Even that far should only be 2nd generation project after the first stretch is in operation. That's how these kinds of things are built elsewhere. Try to do everything at once and you probably won't make anything! Unless you have the kind of money and cheap labor that China can allocate (+ limited opportunity of their population to protest). Not really case anywhere else...
Hampto/Norfolk/Newport news/Va beach????
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 12:11 AM   #3523
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Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Considering the will of people... Are you aware of prisoners dilema? It's a model for a lot of IRL process. Switching to car instead of means of mass. transit may be "win" for each individual at the moment, but in the long run it's "loose" to the entire society - and thus to every member of the society.
Ah, but you just mentioned a situation in which is proven that people aren't solely rationally self-interested. China Hand now thinks that you are stupid and will now ignore anything further you have to say.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 01:19 PM   #3524
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As for the person who said we Americans don't use Public Transit....well here in the Northeast we do and we are investing in it abet slowly... However Rail and Bus Projects are very popular here over road expansion projects... Same with Amtrak projects , and Ridership is up on all Networks as high as 350% since last year with Boston's lines.... The Trend in Transit Ridership growth has been going on since 2007 and shows no sign of stopping. Real Estate is selling faster in Railway suburbs then Auto Suburbs this is also happening in the Midwest and Northwest. Cities for the First time in decades are growing in the Northeast , as high as 20,000 with Philadelphia a year... So your argument that people won't use the line and Rail Travel is unpopular is unfounded.... Theres also alot of Support for the Expanded Amtrak Northeastern Divison from the Forgotten regions of the Northeastern US like Delaware , Northeastern PA , Southern NY , and Older PA...

Various systems of the Northeast in 2012 and 2030...includes Regional Rail , Subway / Metro , Light Rail , Streetcar and Bus rapid Transit , Regional Bus and Urban / Suburban Bus

Metropolitan Transportation Authority
System Size in 2012 : 2,282 miles
System size by 2030 : 3,580 miles
Stations in 2012 : 751
Stations in 2030 : 823
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 11.6 Million
Projected Ridership by 2030 : 16.2 Million


New Jersey Transit / PATH / PATCO / Private Bus operators
System Size in 2012 : 1,390 Miles
System Size by 2030 : 1,720 miles
Stations in 2012 : 690
Stations by 2030 : 883
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 1.8 Million
Projected Ridership by 2030 : 4.7 Million


Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority & Bus Operators in Eastern Massachusetts
System Size in 2012 : 1,193 miles
System Size in 2030 : 1,660 miles
Stations in 2012 : 270
Stations in 2030 : 349
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 1.7 Million
Projected Ridership by 2030 : 3.7 Million


Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority
System size in 2012 : 567 miles
System size by 2030 : 720 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 280
Stations by 2030 : 370
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 1.6 Million
Projected Ridership by 2030 : 4.2 Million

Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority & Northern Virginia Transit
System Size in 2012 : 195 Miles
System Size by 2030 : 428 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 108
Stations by 2030 : 297
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 1.5 Million
Projected Ridership by 2030 : 4.4 Million


Maryland Transit Administration
System Size in 2012 : 232 Miles
System size by 2030 : 664 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 90
Stations by 2030 : 216
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 370,000
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 1.5 Million

CT Transit & CDOT Rail Operations
System Size in 2012 : 157.4 Miles
System Size by 2030 : 510 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 59
Stations by 2030 : 112
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 278,000
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 650,000


Northern Virgina Transit Agencies
System Size in 2012 : 101.5 Miles
System Size by 2030 : 160.8 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 44
Stations by 2030 : 100
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 183,600
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 580,200


Rhode Island Public Transit Authority
System Size in 2012 : 20 Miles
System Size by 2030 : 280 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 5
Stations by 2030 : 59
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 81,070
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 360,000


Delaware First State Rail & Bus
System Size in 2012 : 18 Miles
System Size by 2030 : 190 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 4
Stations by 2030 : 26
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 65,000
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 310,000+


New Hampshire (Capital Corridor) Bus & Future Rail Systems
System Size in 2012 : 0
System Size by 2030 : 69 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 0
Stations by 2030 : 15
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 45,600
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 240,000+


BARTA (Reading) Transit
System size in 2012 : 0
System Size by 2030 : 50 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 0
Stations by 2030 : 15
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 35,600
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 150,000+


Capital Area Transit
System size in 2012 : 0
System Size by 2030 : 105 Miles
Stations in 2012 : 0
Stations by 2030 : 19
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 27,400
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 120,000+


Amtrak Northeastern Division
System Size in 2012 : 2970 miles
System Size by 2030 : 3650 miles
Stations in 2012 : 109
Stations by 2030 : 141
Daily Ridership in 2012 : 20,500
Projected Ridership by 2030 : 215,000


Total Daily Ridership in 2012 : 19.6 Million
Projected Daily Ridership by 2030 : 36.8 Million
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Last edited by Nexis; September 3rd, 2012 at 01:27 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 01:38 PM   #3525
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The Amtrak Northeastern Master Plan , its missing a few State Built Amtrak routes like the Lehigh Corridor and Northwestern Corridor.

-The Virgina Network should be Expanded and Upgraded by 2025 , with Norfolk Service Starting in December & Service to Roanoke Planned by 2019 Speeds up to 90mph
-The Upgraded New Haven - Springfield - Brattleboro Corridor should be Completed by 2018 , Speeds up 110mph /125mph if Electrified
-The Downeaster Expansion to Brunswick Opens in December , The whole Corridor is to upgraded to 110mph by 2020...with DMU sets similar to Amtrak's Cascades line
-The Lehigh line is still under study
-The Northwest line is Still under Study
-The Cape Cod Service will piggyback off of MBTA Cape Cod line Extension
-THe Lackawanna Express will Piggyback off NJT Lackawanna Line Restoration set to open in 2014 phase 1 and Phase 2 by 2021
-A Downeaster Extension to Bangor is under Study
-The Empire Service between Albany and New York Will be upgraded to 125mph and Electrified...by 2030
-The Keystone Corridor will be upgraded and Tracks Restored by 2018 , Speeds increased to 125mph
-The Downstate Delaware Service should begin later this decade , the line will be double tracked with 3 track sections North of Dover to support Commuter and Intercity Rail Trains
-Maryland is Studying a Branch of the Downstate Corridor to Salisbury and then over to Ocean City
-Cross New England Service is under Study , it would run from Boston to Albany with Speeds up to 125mph if Electrified...



NEC Core Network : 125mph+
NEC Feeders : 90-125mph

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Northeastern Network by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

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Northeast Master plan by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr
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Last edited by Nexis; September 3rd, 2012 at 01:52 PM.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 05:06 PM   #3526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Ah, but you just mentioned a situation in which is proven that people aren't solely rationally self-interested. China Hand now thinks that you are stupid and will now ignore anything further you have to say.
Yes, a meme taken from Game Theory a la Nash, for Nuclear armament strategy, used for loads of things that it doesn't apply to, such as individuals in a society - something which game theorists have subsequently proved that game theory fails to assert and justify (as in stay away from our theory, you bunch of muppets)

i.e. people like China Hand who think that are suffering a delusion of a meme that doesn't apply to what they think it applies to, because somebody else in the past wrongfully ported the theory to subject-matter it was not designed for and cannot represent.

Of course, everybody knows it is stupid not to jump on such bandwagons and have no idea where your ideas come from historically.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 06:07 PM   #3527
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Guys, seriously stop bashing China Hand, you're just making the situation worse. Since this thread is for carrying out rail-related discussions, I would much rather go toe-to-toe with him on that than simple mudslinging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
I have repeatedly posted support for why this argument is flawed.

You believe that there is a large amount of traffic from one large urban center to another that can be served by HSR and the fact is that most drivers on large USA Interstates use them as a commuter road.

Once someone gets to Los Angeles from Fresno, they go to one of hundreds of destinations and many of these are 100 miles in all directions. NSE and W.
This is an excellent point, but using this statement as the main reason why HSR is not viable is inadequate. I will explain this in a moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post

Let's work a scenario.

Someone needs to get from Fresno to Canoga Park.
That's assuming everyone (or a sizable amount of people) that lives in Fresno wants to go to Canoga Park (or a logistical equivalent) on a regular basis.

This is the primary Achilles heel of this argument; while it is true that some people will embark on intercity trips to suburban areas, you are not accounting for the percentage of people who do travel from city center to city center. Furthermore, you are also not taking into account the people who would be making the trip if the system is implemented. Research goes to show that newly developed transport infrastructure attracts new users, be it a new highway, airport or railway. Paul M. Weyrich refers to this as " suppressed demand" in that when new highway lanes are introduced, user demand increases to fill them. Applying this to high speed rail, reports show that likewise, only around 20% of the riders represent figures transitioning from other modes of transport. That leaves 80% of the riders grouped as induced ridership, which means that these trips would not have been made if the system had not been built.

With so many more people on the move (or able to), I can safely say that this can greatly improve the economic downturn. While you complain about inconvenience travelling to areas that farther away from city centers, you forget about the masses of potential riders who could (and want) to travel to the city center.

What about those people living in Fresno that want to go to LA over the weekend? What about those with families living in Sacramento but whose jobs required them to work in Anaheim? What about those whose job descriptions required them to run frequent trips between SF and LA?

Your argument against high speed rail fails to address these key scenarios.

In Taiwan, the introduction of high speed rail service has cut travel times from five hours to just 90 minutes end-to-end. Many working people who used to return home only on weekends can now commute to work every day, leading to a trend in Taiwan known as "高鐵組", or "People who commute via HSR". So, as an addendum to your Canoga Park scenario, yes, while HSR may not be a perfect fit for you to travel from home to a high school that is far away from the city center, it may prove useful should you ever land a job that is in downtown San Francisco, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Anaheim, or area that has high speed rail service.


It opens up an entirely new realm of possibilities and physically unites the cities it connects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
I can tell you from personal experience that someone driving that route would be traveling at 80 to 90 mph, 130 kph, in the fast lane. I have personally done this myself. So instead of 3 h 37m it is closer to 2h 45m. But let's give the HSR a head start and use the longer time. So that's from your door in Fresno to parking the car at Canoga Park High School. 3h 37m.
I'll let this one by since this is your personal experience, but my uncle would literally waste two days per week driving 8 hours a day between San Francisco and Los Angeles--his family was up north, his university studies, down south. Irregardless of my own experiences, I do call into question the situation 20-30 years from now. Will such empty stretches of highway always be a reality? It will very likely be the case tomorrow, and the week after; but by the time your kids' generation are taking to them, I do not think anyone can say for sure. At least, that's what the reports are saying; and what they say is that the highways are already reaching their carrying capacities.

In Taiwan, it is possible to travel north to south in two hours, provided that there is no congestion. But what remains forever etched in my mind was that one time during New Years in which the freeway was an endless 5 km/h snarl. It took us more than 10 hours to get home; others weren't so lucky.

So the luxury of travelling quickly at all is in fact, living on borrowed time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
20 mpg for your truck, 10.5 gallons of fuel, $4.00 a gallon, around $42 USD.

3h 37M
$42 USD
That's if you're assuming that oil prices are going to magically stay at $4 a gallon 20-30 years in the future. In Taiwan, the price is already $1.09 per liter ($4.36 per gal), and continues to rise.

True, high speed rail may not seem much more efficient in 2012. Maybe not even in 2015. But by 2020 or later, by the time the system is ready and online (if it starts construction now), it's going to make a lot more sense.

With a realistic price increase to $8 per gallon over the next 10-20 years, the cost of driving is now $82, according to your figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Now let's do this by train.

You leave your front door and walk 5 minutes to a bus and take it to the train. 15 minutes later you are at the station. Assuming, and this is a big 'if' that you get there and spend only 5 minutes to buy a ticket, step on the platform and get the next train the instant it arrives, you only took 25 minutes your front door to the HSR station.

It is 200 miles, 322km to San Fernando. At 300 kph and an avg speed of 255kph (in China avg speed is usually 85% of top speed). you will arrive in 1h 16m. So far so good. 1h 41m time used.

Now you must take a bus from SF to Canoga Park. You *could* take a taxi, but taxi's in Los Angeles are very very expensive and the one taxi ride could easily cost you $100 USD.

Again, from personal experience living in Los Angeles and driving there, taking the bus there, taking a taxi there, driving to the airports there, taking the Metrolink and subway and public transportation, this trip will be at LEAST one hour if not much much longer as the buses are infrequent with poor coverage. The good part is that the bus will cost you $2 at most.

Let's say 1h 15 minutes, but I know, as fact, that there are NO buses going E to W across the valley to Canoga Park from the town of San Fernando and you will have to transfer and THAT will add up to 1 hour to the trip.

But I will be easy on HSR. 1h 15m.
So you're going easy on HSR by blaming it for the lack of connecting public transit options? Is it even HSR's fault that there are no bus services running from its stations? And how can you be so certain when the station for the HSR service in question hasn't even gone into operation, let alone having been built yet?

The issue you are presenting is understandably a tangent issue, but it is not directly related to HSR. It falls under system connectivity, and can be applied to any form of transportation, be it an airport or some other transportation hub. If there is an adequate demand (a sizeable population that can afford HSR), creating a bus line after the HSR comes online is not a problem at all.

I honestly don't see how you'd say you'd rather drive to the airport rather than drive downtown to a train station (which is closer and obviously more convenient)

Here in Taiwan, we are doing exactly that; since many stations are built outside city areas, THSR launched shuttle bus services that ferried passengers between the station and the city. The only downside to this setup was that Taiwan's roads are often congested and the buses have horrible punctuality; as a result, such services have been discontinued for cities with supporting rail services. But this scenario demonstrates that not having a bus that goes from Canoga Park to downtown is by no means an excuse to stop high speed rail.

I'm noticing that you're drawing most of your conclusions from your "personal experiences", the application of daily knowledge into a local scenario that affects you; not that that's a problem, in fact that's a very normal way to form an opinion, but it is important also step outside from such experiences and look at how other people see and do things. You keep on saying how America is not like Europe and Asia, but one reason why America is different from the other parts of the developed world is not because America doesn't need public transport, but because Americans have been forced to live without it for the past half century. It is difficult to judge based on "personal experience" that do not exist, especially for a system with such complex social and economic effects as high speed rail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post

Total time is now 1h 16m (the actual train trip), 25 getting to the station and 1h 15 minutes getting from the HSR station nearest Canoga Park to your destination.

Total time:
2h 56minutes.
Cost at 7Ē per km is $22.54

But, again from personal experience, that price point is unrealistic. Current Metrolink fares are 33 miles or 53 kms and $9.25 from Union Station to Chatsworth, the station nearest.

That is a cost per km of 17.5Ē for slow rail.

It is thus likely that the ticket cost from Fresno will be closer to $55 USD or more at 17.5Ē per km.
As said above, the reason why $55 seems pricey is because oil is heavily subsidized in the US. Once it becomes impossible for the government to keep prices low anymore, $55 will be a joyride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
If posting such well-researched arguments makes me an 'anti-rail biggot' (sic) as sekelsenmat posted in another thread, then perhaps you all should ask if your opinions are based upon facts and reality, or something else.
I do not consider you an anti-rail bigot, but I do consider you to be slightly self-contradictory. I have taken a considerable amount of time and effort to respectfully reply to your differing viewpoint. Please feel free to refute my arguments.
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Last edited by Silver Swordsman; September 13th, 2012 at 10:00 AM.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 06:10 PM   #3528
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The Amtrak Northeastern Master Plan , its missing a few State Built Amtrak routes like the Lehigh Corridor and Northwestern Corridor.

-The Virgina Network should be Expanded and Upgraded by 2025 , with Norfolk Service Starting in December & Service to Roanoke Planned by 2019 Speeds up to 90mph
-The Upgraded New Haven - Springfield - Brattleboro Corridor should be Completed by 2018 , Speeds up 110mph /125mph if Electrified
-The Downeaster Expansion to Brunswick Opens in December , The whole Corridor is to upgraded to 110mph by 2020...with DMU sets similar to Amtrak's Cascades line
-The Lehigh line is still under study
-The Northwest line is Still under Study
-The Cape Cod Service will piggyback off of MBTA Cape Cod line Extension
-THe Lackawanna Express will Piggyback off NJT Lackawanna Line Restoration set to open in 2014 phase 1 and Phase 2 by 2021
-A Downeaster Extension to Bangor is under Study
-The Empire Service between Albany and New York Will be upgraded to 125mph and Electrified...by 2030
-The Keystone Corridor will be upgraded and Tracks Restored by 2018 , Speeds increased to 125mph
-The Downstate Delaware Service should begin later this decade , the line will be double tracked with 3 track sections North of Dover to support Commuter and Intercity Rail Trains
-Maryland is Studying a Branch of the Downstate Corridor to Salisbury and then over to Ocean City
-Cross New England Service is under Study , it would run from Boston to Albany with Speeds up to 125mph if Electrified...



NEC Core Network : 125mph+
NEC Feeders : 90-125mph

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Northeastern Network by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

Northeast Master plan by Nexis4Jersey09, on Flickr

Hah The line will dead end at main street station here in RVA
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Old September 4th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #3529
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site: http://www.courant.com/news/connecti...,6504089.story
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Old September 4th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #3530
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Amtrak never proposed this, UPenn did...sloppy Journalism...
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Old September 4th, 2012, 07:55 PM   #3531
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On the contrary; you must've misread it.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #3532
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Quote:
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Amtrak never proposed this, UPenn did...sloppy Journalism...
Either way sounds like a huge waste of money.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #3533
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Hello.

Whatīs the point of skipping Rhode Island on that idea?
Wouldnīt this tunnel to Long Island be far more expensive than making it run through the mainland along Connecticut?

Thank you.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 12:49 AM   #3534
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Amtrak never proposed this, UPenn did...sloppy Journalism...
Sloppy academics, too. This is really more Fairleigh Dickinson or Montclair State-type work. I would expect better from an Ivy League institution.

And, yes, to whoever mentioned this, UPenn purposefully skipped Rhode Island to get back at Brown for losing at that rowing contest on the Schuylkill back in '03.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 12:51 AM   #3535
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On the contrary; you must've misread it.
More like didn't bother reading it.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 01:24 AM   #3536
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I wouldn't blame him, the article essentially reveals the appalling state of education ...
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Old September 5th, 2012, 01:47 AM   #3537
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They better bring it on down to richmond

dumbasses
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Old September 5th, 2012, 02:41 AM   #3538
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Amtrak rejected it due to the Densities of LI , it wasn't the Ridership which was expected to be high. The Grades along I-84 are too steep even for the Light Weight trains Amtrak was going to use....and the Western Approach into Boston is abit messy.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 05:24 AM   #3539
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An Westbound 135mph Acela Express Roaring through Trenton & Rush Hour Photos

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Old September 9th, 2012, 08:05 PM   #3540
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An Westbound 135mph Acela Express Roaring through Trenton & Rush Hour Photos

Pretty legit.
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