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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 13th, 2012, 10:29 PM   #3561
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
This is an excellent point, but using this statement as the main reason why HSR is not viable is inadequate. I will explain this in a moment.

That's assuming everyone (or a sizable amount of people) that lives in Fresno wants to go to Canoga Park (or a logistical equivalent) on a regular basis.

This is the primary Achilles heel of this argument...
Firstly, you have ceded that HSR does not go where the planners wish Americans to travel.

Secondly, what you miss is this:

If any HSR were built in California, it would be on that axis, with a Fresno to San Fernando City segment. Thus the time from Fresno to SF holds as anyone going to any other destination in Socal would take the same route on the same train and then head to Burbank or Union Station or points onward.

This is just one destination - anyone who drove that route would do the same. Traffic gets through the passes to L.A. three ways: on the I-5, I-15 or CA 101, heads down the hills into The Valleys, and then splits off into many directions as people go to Simi, Ventura, Pasadena, the IE, Los Angeles, The Westside, and on and on and on. There is no way to get all of them there using a train because the trips are all too unique.

Canoga Park is just one example, but all the other trips in Socal are the same - there is no one who wants to go from Fresno to San Fernando or Union Station and then on to any of a hundred points that are not served by HSR. Everyone has to go someplace else, a someplace not served by HSR, or buses, or trains, or Metrolink or anything other than fast, cheap automobiles.

Anyone heading to the Central Valley of California would need private transportation because once they alight at a Modesto HSR station they need to get around in the CV which is sparsely populated farms.

Regarding your post in the China thread: Why did I not bother to reply here? Because you made such an obvious and facile oversight in this first point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Actually, I read over your posts in great detail in the US HSR thread and spent hours refuting your claims; you've never bothered to answer. I was wondering why you were against rail in the US while for it in China when both countries had similar population densities
China and the USA do not have similar population densities. To claim so is to lie.
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Old September 13th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #3562
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Old September 14th, 2012, 01:16 AM   #3563
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Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Richmond isn't getting faster service but 125mph service which is fine.
heck no, the main plans that ive seen show 200 mph
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:04 AM   #3564
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Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
heck no, the main plans that ive seen show 200 mph
Got a link? The SEHSR proposals currently only have 90 and 110 mph. I do not recall the NEC Vision talking about a dedicated HSL extension to Richmond. That can be done along the I-95 corridor but would require cooperation of CSX which at this point is non-existant at least in upstate New York.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:09 AM   #3565
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Oh? Does CSX no longer have a line running north-south along the west side of the Adirondacks?
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Old September 14th, 2012, 08:31 AM   #3566
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Firstly, you have ceded that HSR does not go where the planners wish Americans to travel.

Secondly, what you miss is this:

If any HSR were built in California, it would be on that axis, with a Fresno to San Fernando City segment. Thus the time from Fresno to SF holds as anyone going to any other destination in Socal would take the same route on the same train and then head to Burbank or Union Station or points onward.

This is just one destination - anyone who drove that route would do the same. Traffic gets through the passes to L.A. three ways: on the I-5, I-15 or CA 101, heads down the hills into The Valleys, and then splits off into many directions as people go to Simi, Ventura, Pasadena, the IE, Los Angeles, The Westside, and on and on and on. There is no way to get all of them there using a train because the trips are all too unique.

Canoga Park is just one example, but all the other trips in Socal are the same - there is no one who wants to go from Fresno to San Fernando or Union Station and then on to any of a hundred points that are not served by HSR. Everyone has to go someplace else, a someplace not served by HSR, or buses, or trains, or Metrolink or anything other than fast, cheap automobiles.

Anyone heading to the Central Valley of California would need private transportation because once they alight at a Modesto HSR station they need to get around in the CV which is sparsely populated farms.
But HSR doesn't nead to please everyone, it just need to please enough people to be feasible. Given the fact that mass transit in USA cities are developing now and fuel prices aren't going to drop, to the time HSR will be build it would have a good ridership. Blah, even Accela have a good one, and it's even profitable (even being an overloaded FRA-tank as it is), unlike many other Amtrack trains.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #3567
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My! it's been clear for quite the while now that China cannot prevent his skidmarks from leaching through any seat of his underwear
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Old September 14th, 2012, 02:23 PM   #3568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Firstly, you have ceded that HSR does not go where the planners wish Americans to travel.
Not true. I have only said that HSR cannot serve EVERY location, just like an airport. I don't get it: it seems perfectly alright to drive (or be driven) to an airport that's much farther away, go through security, sit in a cramped seat for an hour, hope for no delays, go back through security again after landing, wait for baggage, and THEN be driven back into the city; yet somehow it's completely unacceptable that you have to take a trip to the city center to ride the train, where there are none of those issues. I would like to reemphasize that connectivity with surrounding regions is not the immediate responsibility of HSR. That would be left to buses or other forms of mass transit, which would open according to demand after the system is built.

Being situated in the Transbay Terminal in SF means that you can easily take the BART to the HSR station without the need of a car.

Also, I would like to point out again: why would you expect, in a capitalist, free-market economy, that there will not be any service for this kind of demand?
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Secondly, what you miss is this:

If any HSR were built in California, it would be on that axis, with a Fresno to San Fernando City segment. Thus the time from Fresno to SF holds as anyone going to any other destination in Socal would take the same route on the same train and then head to Burbank or Union Station or points onward.

This is just one destination - anyone who drove that route would do the same. Traffic gets through the passes to L.A. three ways: on the I-5, I-15 or CA 101, heads down the hills into The Valleys, and then splits off into many directions as people go to Simi, Ventura, Pasadena, the IE, Los Angeles, The Westside, and on and on and on. There is no way to get all of them there using a train because the trips are all too unique.
Your answer demonstrates that you have a strong misconception about the nature of HSR operation. You are correct (and I agree) that it is not a fix-it-all in that it is supposed to support every corner of a sprawling community; but as said above, I don't see how you would make the same demands for an airport. A station is designed to be a hub, a place where you transfer to another form of transit that can cover the distance faster than a car, instead of covering the entire trip by car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Canoga Park is just one example, but all the other trips in Socal are the same - there is no one who wants to go from Fresno to San Fernando or Union Station and then on to any of a hundred points that are not served by HSR. Everyone has to go someplace else, a someplace not served by HSR, or buses, or trains, or Metrolink or anything other than fast, cheap automobiles.
You have still ignored the fact (which I pointed out) that cars are no longer fast and gas is no longer cheap. Congestion and rising gas prices will slowly choke the life out of cars, if they haven't already.

To argue otherwise is to deny reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post

Anyone heading to the Central Valley of California would need private transportation because once they alight at a Modesto HSR station they need to get around in the CV which is sparsely populated farms.
I still don't see how you would want to travel to the CV (where no one lives) when you aren't meeting anyone who lives there. Putting that issue aside, HSR will do the following for CA:

1. It will increase connectivity between all population centers that have a station.
2. It will provide incentive for people to move back into the downtown region/curb sprawl.
3. Due to #2, it will increase the land prices near the station, which increases productivity.
4. People who live in the CV will have ready access to other cities.
5. North/south commutes will be possible.
6. It will reduce stress on highways and other intracity infrastructure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Regarding your post in the China thread: Why did I not bother to reply here? Because you made such an obvious and facile oversight in this first point.
You have refuted only one of my points; I had around 4-5 arguments. I take that as a concession of defeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
China and the USA do not have similar population densities. To claim so is to lie.
I wrote that in because you said people in China would take the slow bus from the station to outlying regions (which seems to be the main crux of your argument): I do not understand why that is very good in China and not good at all in CA.

To everyone else: Stop it with the flaming. It's immature.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 05:01 PM   #3569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post

1. It will increase connectivity between all population centers that have a station.
2. It will provide incentive for people to move back into the downtown region/curb sprawl.
3. Due to #2, it will increase the land prices near the station, which increases productivity.
4. People who live in the CV will have ready access to other cities.
5. North/south commutes will be possible.
6. It will reduce stress on highways and other intracity infrastructure.
What do you think about the projected fares though? I'm a bit worried, they seem rather prohibitive (and a little high?).

Isn't there a trade-off? You can lower fares below the actual cost to carry a passenger, but if you'll attract more passengers overall it's obviously smarter, right? I just don't see how a $200+ seems realistic from LA-SanFran. They could sell a rail-pass or something, but...
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Old September 14th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #3570
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SS, your efforts are admirable, but I have enough experience debating with China Hand, and others who think like him on a range of issues, to know that you can't win. He's little more than a verbose troll.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 07:13 PM   #3571
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
SS, your efforts are admirable, but I have enough experience debating with China Hand, and others who think like him on a range of issues, to know that you can't win. He's little more than a verbose troll.
LOL, thanks for the advice, but I've lurked for awhile and noticed his patterns, too. I wouldn't call him a troll, though. Not yet, at least. I don't really care whether I "win" or not; to me, it's a good mental exercise and reinforces my knowledge on why HSR is a good idea.
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Old September 14th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #3572
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I guess some people just like to antagonize others.... It can be entertaining at times though.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 02:31 PM   #3573
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Originally Posted by CNB30 View Post
heck no, the main plans that ive seen show 200 mph
People either commute from far distant WDC suburbs into The Beltway from WVa, Loudon, Prince William, Fredericksburg and other distant locals, or they drive from DC to Richmond and then head to Hampton Roads or Charlottesville. Richmond is a small city with few direct point to point trips, as in most of the USA. People use the Interstates to get from A to B, then head on to hundreds of other destinations in all directions.

You guys are arguing with me about this and I lived in that part of the world for 30 years.

You look at the traffic on I-95 between those cities and assume those trips can be replaced with HSR and you are simply WRONG because you are approaching this from an Academic, Engineering or Public Policy point of view that ignores reality.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 02:39 PM   #3574
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
LOL, thanks for the advice, but I've lurked for awhile and noticed his patterns, too. I wouldn't call him a troll, though. Not yet, at least. I don't really care whether I "win" or not; to me, it's a good mental exercise and reinforces my knowledge on why HSR is a good idea.
I do not post to antagonize or cause disturbance for its sake, the definition of 'Troll'.

I post because you guys are wrong and you are ignorant of this subject as it pertains to the real world and HSR in the USA. When I see ivory tower wishlist nonsense posted and I know it contradicts a reality that I know that you don't, I will call you on it.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 02:48 PM   #3575
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
You have still ignored the fact (which I pointed out) that cars are no longer fast and gas is no longer cheap. Congestion and rising gas prices will slowly choke the life out of cars, if they haven't already.

To argue otherwise is to deny reality.
Clearly you have been educated beyond the limits of your intellect.

Before 2000 if a trip in the USA took over 3 hours, people flew.
Since gas has gone to $4 a gallon, if a trip takes over 5 hours, people fly.

The fact is that it is still, now, today, cheaper to drive and flying is cheaper per passenger km than a train. That's why people drive along routes that parallel train byways. That's why the Jersey Turnpike has autos but railway serves the exact same corridor.

Clearly you either intentionally ignore these facts about the USA, if you live there or have; or you have no direct experience of the USA, are oblivious, unobservant and clueless.

I have driven in the USA last year, I lived there for decades, and why you ignore my cost breakdowns and arguments must be attributed to willful dissemblement on your part.

Or you simply haven't a clue about American culture.

Either way, I have better things to do with my life than discuss fantasy public works projects with someone who has expressed no real world knowledge of the USA.

Later.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #3576
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This is what drives me crazy (clearly, as I'm once again responding to a post of yours): you use facts precisely as you want to, and any other interpretation of them is not only wrong, but represents a distorted worldview. Stop being so damned dogmatic; there is no guarantee that you're right, nor is there any guarantee that we are. By using ad hominems and painting black-and-white pictures, you're clearly not trying to provide useful contribution to the topic, but are instead merely attempting to shut down the conversation. This fits my definition of "troll".

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Clearly you have been educated beyond the limits of your intellect.

Before 2000 if a trip in the USA took over 3 hours, people flew.
Since gas has gone to $4 a gallon, if a trip takes over 5 hours, people fly.
Transportation is already the second greatest expenditure for the average American household, and gas prices will continue to rise if for no other reason than increasing consumption throughout the rest of the world, so automotive transportation will be a source of increasing financial burden on those for whom driving is a necessity. This is inarguable.

Quote:
The fact is that it is still, now, today, cheaper to drive and flying is cheaper per passenger km than a train. That's why people drive along routes that parallel train byways. That's why the Jersey Turnpike has autos but railway serves the exact same corridor.

Clearly you either intentionally ignore these facts about the USA, if you live there or have; or you have no direct experience of the USA, are oblivious, unobservant and clueless.

I have driven in the USA last year, I lived there for decades, and why you ignore my cost breakdowns and arguments must be attributed to willful dissemblement on your part.

Or you simply haven't a clue about American culture.

Either way, I have better things to do with my life than discuss fantasy public works projects with someone who has expressed no real world knowledge of the USA.

Later.
You haven't provided anything resembling a thought-out cost analysis for transportation; you assume that American culture does not and will not change; you misunderstand the ways in which public transportation fits into transportation generally.

And of course, you continue to insult others using little more than subjective knowledge to support your opposing position.

You. Are. A. Troll.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #3577
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Just ignore China hand, he is obviously...hmmm... a moron.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #3578
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My! it's been clear for quite the while now that China cannot prevent his skidmarks from leaching through any seat of his underwear
This is a modified Ad Hominem logical fallacy and the fact that so many posters resort to this type of reply and other fallacies in this thread means that you all do not know how to debate or put forth an argument.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:48 PM   #3579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Clearly you have been educated beyond the limits of your intellect.
Personality-based attacks - detected. Instead of countering my arguments point by point, you have opted to directly assign a rating to my intelligence.

Troll status: semi-confirmed.

Initiating counter-troll measures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Before 2000 if a trip in the USA took over 3 hours, people flew.
Since gas has gone to $4 a gallon, if a trip takes over 5 hours, people fly.
What kind of logical fallacy is this? Airlines still use gas, and are, if not more energy inefficient than autos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
The fact is that it is still, now, today, cheaper to drive and flying is cheaper per passenger km than a train. That's why people drive along routes that parallel train byways. That's why the Jersey Turnpike has autos but railway serves the exact same corridor.
1. You still are not recognizing the fact that driving costs are still very subsidized. Not to mention that current city codes were designed for urban sprawl and car use (which is a reversing trend nowadays).
2. You keep on talking about "today." I'm tired of hearing this argument. High speed rail is not in the US "today". It's for this little thing called tomorrow. If your vision of the future holds the same fundamental principles dictating current USA transportation, good luck.
3. You are also ignoring the fact that the NEC is actually nearing full capacity and currently accounts for around 75% of intercity trips in that region.


Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Clearly you either intentionally ignore these facts about the USA, if you live there or have; or you have no direct experience of the USA, are oblivious, unobservant and clueless.

I have driven in the USA last year, I lived there for decades, and why you ignore my cost breakdowns and arguments must be attributed to willful dissemblement on your part.
I've lived in the US myself for nearly half of my entire life, in one of the most rural areas of the nation, so somewhat I can understand how in your close-minded way of thinking, believe how unviable HSR is.

I know what it means to drive around in the US--and it is pretty damn inconvenient if you ask me.

Clearly you are so mired in the past and present that you cannot see the bigger picture or envision any substantial changes.

--

You're accusing me of being clueless? Bitch please; the reason why I'm even replying on this thread is because I've personally devoted years of my personal time to analyze, based on my experiences there, how high speed rail would work.

An ivory tower? There is already an existing ivory tower in the US; a transportation system that tries to address the transportation demands of the 21st century with inefficient, archaic, and crumbling infrastructure with no major plans for improvement.

And what about you? You've spent the last few posts ranting the same arguments over and over again, the same argument (how the Interstate acts like a feeder branch system) which I have clearly refuted and which you have not even bothered to respond to. Since we're both jumping on the intelligence level of our opponents; I'll say that the lack, or inability to address an opponent's argument is a clear sign that the debater either 1. cannot find a legitimate argument to refute it or 2. lacks the intelligence or ability to recognize and issue a counterargument.

Unless you do refute my arguments point-by-point, I will treat you as a troll and ignore you.


Yes, have a good day.


EDIT: I see that I posted late. Thanks Aqua.
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Last edited by Silver Swordsman; September 15th, 2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Old September 15th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #3580
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
And of course, you continue to insult others using little more than subjective knowledge to support your opposing position.
You aren't posting facts you are posting opinions and your presumed objective knowledge is wrong because I lived there and you didn't and what you say is factually incorrect.

The fact is that all of you in favour of HSR in California and the NE Corridor of the USA have zero experience with those locations. You haven't driven them, you don't know the traffic patterns and behaviours, you have never spoken to anyone who drives those routes.

You are living in an academic fantasy land that ignores all that informs you why HSR does not exist in the USA.

You have no idea what you are talking about other than what you have read in a book or on a website.

Well, USA traffic patterns differ from what you learned in a book or 500 level course.
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