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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old October 25th, 2012, 10:34 PM   #3641
FM 2258
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Try selling that to the electorate
Yeah, probably won't work
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Old October 26th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #3642
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The Chinese are usually industrial cheater, they stole CRH from Siemens. Actually I wished Siemens sued the Chinese to not allow any major country to import that pirated train.

In any case, the Chinese are crap at building infrastructure. They are not more capable because they are Chinese. It is only because laws are lax on China, they can pay slave wages, and use shoddy concrete, and ignore any restrictions or obligations like paying fairly for eminent domain.

If you could theoretically give full authority to CAHSR to build anywhere it wanted paying token values and hiring poor laborers at US$ 10/day, it could get it build cheap and fast.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 01:30 AM   #3643
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The Chinese are usually industrial cheater, they stole CRH from Siemens. Actually I wished Siemens sued the Chinese to not allow any major country to import that pirated train.

In any case, the Chinese are crap at building infrastructure. They are not more capable because they are Chinese. It is only because laws are lax on China, they can pay slave wages, and use shoddy concrete, and ignore any restrictions or obligations like paying fairly for eminent domain.

If you could theoretically give full authority to CAHSR to build anywhere it wanted paying token values and hiring poor laborers at US$ 10/day, it could get it build cheap and fast.
I had the idea that the CRH system was built to standards much better than other types of projects in China. I hope high quality concrete was used because a lot of the network seems to be on concrete bridges.

As for the trains I thought business for technology transfer and aid was done legitimately.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 08:17 AM   #3644
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Old October 26th, 2012, 08:51 AM   #3645
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At first glance I thought they were ex-B&O cpl signals, but apparently they are PRR position light signals modified by Amtrak with color lenses.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #3646
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I had the idea that the CRH system was built to standards much better than other types of projects in China. I hope high quality concrete was used because a lot of the network seems to be on concrete bridges.

As for the trains I thought business for technology transfer and aid was done legitimately.
As far as I know, that's true in both cases. Suburbanist is just being weird here.

In addition to cheaper labor and potentially material costs, China doesn't have two things which make construction cheaper and faster: America's intensive environmental review processes and a public which doesn't feel it has (nor does it actually have) the ability to obstruct a project just because they don't like it.
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Old October 26th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #3647
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^ This and the fact that anything that is a "national project" is streamlined and steam-rolled through. Obstructionists exist in China, and if they really want to stop something, they WILL (i.e. Shanghai-Hangzhou Maglev). What's the determining factor in their success is how important the project is to national development (also, people realize that traveling by trains is cheaper than flying - in most cases - and see it as a good thing; increased mobility).

Also, what many people just don't get, is that development can be done so cheaply in China because the government can conscript land far more easily and has more options in financing (i.e. state owned banks giving low interest loans to favored projects/developers).

For instance, one scheme that has worked brilliantly, is providing loans to local governments to build infrastructure with the local governments then leasing surrounding plots of land to developers, turning pretty profit. That's why a lot of the new stations seem to be "in the middle of nowhere," with dozens of apartment complexes and things nearby.

Ultimately, the difference is that people don't seem to take much issue with the idea of government doing "business" there. Here, it seems to be incomprehensible (but this is an entirely different debate).
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Old October 26th, 2012, 05:22 PM   #3648
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
As far as I know, that's true in both cases. Suburbanist is just being weird here.

In addition to cheaper labor and potentially material costs, China doesn't have two things which make construction cheaper and faster: America's intensive environmental review processes and a public which doesn't feel it has (nor does it actually have) the ability to obstruct a project just because they don't like it.
I will go as far to saying that the only company that has an issue with CRH is Kawasaki. Bombardier is still working with the MOR, and Siemens is still a components supplier afaik.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 01:53 AM   #3649
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
As far as I know, that's true in both cases. Suburbanist is just being weird here.

In addition to cheaper labor and potentially material costs, China doesn't have two things which make construction cheaper and faster: America's intensive environmental review processes and a public which doesn't feel it has (nor does it actually have) the ability to obstruct a project just because they don't like it.
I think, though, what the point that he and the ex-HyperMiler were trying to make is that it appears a lot of the technology used in 'native' trains is from these foreign companies. If they were to try to sell such technology abroad, these companies would likely sue. It's an argument that's only provable or dismissable if the MOR were to open up the insides of the CRH. Given that will almost never happen, the question of whether or not its truly Chinese remains hanging. With their track record, its dubious.
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Old October 27th, 2012, 03:13 AM   #3650
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They were testing out the speeds on trains a while ago, specifically in New Jersey
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Old October 28th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #3651
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Quote:
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I think, though, what the point that he and the ex-HyperMiler were trying to make is that it appears a lot of the technology used in 'native' trains is from these foreign companies. If they were to try to sell such technology abroad, these companies would likely sue. It's an argument that's only provable or dismissable if the MOR were to open up the insides of the CRH. Given that will almost never happen, the question of whether or not its truly Chinese remains hanging. With their track record, its dubious.
AFAIK all those companies (Kawasaki, Hitachi, Siemens, Bombardier, and Alstom) are still happily doing business with MOR as system integrator or component supplier. If you open up a domestically made CRH train you will likely find components from those aforementioned companies, and they are purchased legitimately. I don't think any of them will ever sue CSR/CNR for anything.

Now back to topic, are there any results published about the Acela's 170mph tests? In the video Jim mentioned sometimes the train seems to be running at speed greater than 170mph, it'd be interesting to see the actual maximum speed achieved.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #3652
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The North Eastern route served by Acela really is the route where high speed rail in US makes most sense. If it only could be made as fast and reliable as Shinkansen, TGV, AVE or similar systems...

Given the current technology the ideal version would be Boston-Washington DC in 4 1/2 h with stops in New York and Philadelphia (all trains) and a bit longer for trains also stopping in Hartford, New Haven and Baltimore. It would cost a lot to build it properly, but probably not any more than currently proposed in California.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #3653
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If you check the Japan Highspeed rail thread, JR Tokai in affiliations with JR West, JR Kyushu and Taiwan High speed rail are teaming up into promoting the JR Maglev system to the NEC which will connect NY and DC within an hour.
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Old October 28th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #3654
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If you check the Japan Highspeed rail thread, JR Tokai in affiliations with JR West, JR Kyushu and Taiwan High speed rail are teaming up into promoting the JR Maglev system to the NEC which will connect NY and DC within an hour.
Sounds appealing in theory, but I fear that in reality the technology is still too unproven, the overall costs too high and interoperability with existing systems zero. Otherwise how come Japanese (or Germans) are not racing forward with constructing such lines in their own countries?
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Old October 28th, 2012, 10:20 PM   #3655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
AFAIK all those companies (Kawasaki, Hitachi, Siemens, Bombardier, and Alstom) are still happily doing business with MOR as system integrator or component supplier. If you open up a domestically made CRH train you will likely find components from those aforementioned companies, and they are purchased legitimately. I don't think any of them will ever sue CSR/CNR for anything.

Now back to topic, are there any results published about the Acela's 170mph tests? In the video Jim mentioned sometimes the train seems to be running at speed greater than 170mph, it'd be interesting to see the actual maximum speed achieved.
No, they wouldn't sue now. Imagine if they wanted to export the 380B? What if Siemens was going for that contract too? How would Siemens feel if CNR/CSR won with the CRH380B?

Just a thought.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #3656
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Otherwise how come Japanese (or Germans) are not racing forward with constructing such lines in their own countries?
Japan is building such a line.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:16 AM   #3657
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Japan is building such a line.
It won't fully open till 2040.....so whats the point of building a line here if you can't build it quicky over there...
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Old October 29th, 2012, 07:26 AM   #3658
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It won't fully open till 2040.....so whats the point of building a line here if you can't build it quicky over there...
The Chuo Shinkansen (JRMaglev line) from Tokyo to Nagoya is scheduled to open in 2027 the extension to Osaka is scheduled to open in 2045.
The extension for the test course which will become part of the Chuo Shinkansen line is scheduled to open next year.
Even if the US decided to construct a new line in the NEC it will probably not open till the middle of this century due to various red taps and other bureaucratic speed bumps.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 09:04 AM   #3659
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The Chuo Shinkansen (JRMaglev line) from Tokyo to Nagoya is scheduled to open in 2027 the extension to Osaka is scheduled to open in 2045.
The extension for the test course which will become part of the Chuo Shinkansen line is scheduled to open next year.
Even if the US decided to construct a new line in the NEC it will probably not open till the middle of this century due to various red taps and other bureaucratic speed bumps.
Between high speed rail and maglev, the bureacratic nightmare is only a matter of scale. 30million per mile or 60million per mile? 2:40 or 90minutes?

To be honest though, I have a feeling the anti-HSR hysteria is dying down. Illinois did their tests, and aside from a few colorful slogans from Kings County, CA, ("To all HSR supporters: Eat sh** and die."), we're seeing a transition from partisan debates to a more quiet preparation for real-life implementation.

I will, however, remain skeptical that CHSR will be able to deliver a 220 mph service in the first year: I feel they'll very likely start off at 186mph/300km/h, gradually work up to 200mph/320km/h, and then finally hit 220 mph/350km/h around a decade after it opens. While the media will probably have a field day over this, I feel that it's irrelevant. Taiwan HSR was designed to have an end-to-end travel time of 90 minutes; in real life it takes 2 hours, a bit more if stopping at all stations; but it doesn't deter riders. 20 extra minutes spent on the train is insignificant unless you're late for a meeting, which means you should have booked the train that left ten minutes before.
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Old October 29th, 2012, 11:47 AM   #3660
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Sounds appealing in theory, but I fear that in reality the technology is still too unproven, the overall costs too high and interoperability with existing systems zero.
Operators do not want interoperability since it costs them too much.
Here is the reason why. An operator owning a limited number of HST would want to maximize usage of his limited HST fleet so they would want it to be on the fast lane as much as possible to carry more passengers within a given time frame. Therefore the operator would not want to send his shiny new HST fleet down a slow track that can only carry a reduced amount of passenger within the same time frame as a fast lane plus if you send it down the slow lane it may also get caught in traffic bogged down by freight losing more potential passengers.
On top 2~5% of the fleet will be in maintenance at any given moment and HST would have an 20~30% premium on it's price tag compared to a conventional train. So interoperability is meaningless even if such function exists since the operator would not send it down a slow lane in the first place due to economy.
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