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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:58 AM   #3701
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CAHSR will use a proprietary system developed by Caltrans. That was the initial idea at least.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 04:01 AM   #3702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phat100cai View Post
Dear, friend!
Highspeed rail track built will cut through much farming land, and the government must buy this land to settle it down with farmer. At this point, the Cali state is badly in the need to balance the budget, and many social programs is cut or reduced. Also, the whole country is currently in debt of trilllllllllion of dollars of billlllion of dollars of interest annually. With this financing status, Are you wisely enough to persuade me to support building this luxury transportation? Where should we go to dig enough money to build this kind of luxury transportation.
My friend! We can't afford it. Let's pay off the debt first for our country and balance the budget of Cali state- refund those social program, which have been on cut or under-funded recently- maintaining or repairing our current road, highway, or rail-track to better condition because most of this infrastructure has more than 50-60 yrs. This is more practical and realistic.
What a joke. Luxury transportation? You have no idea what you are talking about. What a backward way of thinking. I suppose you can't look beyond next week?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #3703
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
CAHSR will use a proprietary system developed by Caltrans. That was the initial idea at least.
Won't that just make it needlessly complicated and expensive?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 04:57 PM   #3704
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Won't that just make it needlessly complicated and expensive?
Yes, but developing a domestic (American) protocol instead of importing something from Europe or JApan was part (albeit minor) of the conception of CAHSR.

Their system is called CBOSS (Communications-Based Overlay Signal System) and Caltrans is expecting to have it fully functional for first deployment in 2015. It is going to be compatible with PTC systems developed for freight railways.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #3705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phat100cai View Post
Dear, friend!
Highspeed rail track built will cut through much farming land, and the government must buy this land to settle it down with farmer. At this point, the Cali state is badly in the need to balance the budget, and many social programs is cut or reduced. Also, the whole country is currently in debt of trilllllllllion of dollars of billlllion of dollars of interest annually. With this financing status, Are you wisely enough to persuade me to support building this luxury transportation? Where should we go to dig enough money to build this kind of luxury transportation.
...And highways? ...Isn't that how I-5 was built?

A few facts short of an argument, this is.

Suburbanist: I agree on your comment about switches a couple of pages back, although IMO at least in the NEC obsolete catenary is a more pressing problem. But if you take a look at the discussions around Transbay's throat layout, you'll note that one of the major gripes is that it's being designed to be much longer than needed...because there aren't any curved switches.
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
Won't that just make it needlessly complicated and expensive?
Yes.

Worse, CBOSS won't actually be HSR-compatible (i.e. seamlessly integrated into whatever signaling system CAHSR decides upon for its main line). Why they can't just start with ERTMS and expand as needed to fit the conditions is beyond me.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #3706
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I just think crash avoidance is the way to go, look at Japan, they have the safest HSR system in the world and they mainly focus on crash avoidance. HSR crashes at high speed is like plane crashes, casualty is unavoidable, so better spend the resources to prevent them from happening in the first place.
I agree, but the Japanese system is pretty unique: it's based on a TOTAL separation of Shinkansen and other lines. No HS train ever uses a line also hosting freight or commuter rail. Somehow I don't see this happen in the US. Even in Spain - where the AVE trains have a different gauge width - they have found ways of prolonging HS services into the legacy network.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 06:47 PM   #3707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I agree, but the Japanese system is pretty unique: it's based on a TOTAL separation of Shinkansen and other lines. No HS train ever uses a line also hosting freight or commuter rail. Somehow I don't see this happen in the US. Even in Spain - where the AVE trains have a different gauge width - they have found ways of prolonging HS services into the legacy network.
And the Mini Shinkansen? It doesn't runs on conventional lines?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 09:00 PM   #3708
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Mini Shinkansen isn't HSR and therefore not the subject of the point.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 01:20 AM   #3709
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Originally Posted by mgk920 View Post
Also, the financial situation of the USA's federal and many state governments is such that there is no way any of that will be paid for for a long time to come. The federal situation is nearly proportionally on the scale of Greece - with spending on social 'entitlement' programs going through the roof and much, much more on the way.



And then there is this anti-energy orgy that is just beginning at the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) that will make it very expensive, if not impossible, to power whatever might be built.



Mike
This entire post is garbage. The US is NOTHING like Greece and never will be. How dare you so recklessly compare America to Greece. Spending on entitlement programs has not gone through the roof. Defense and homeland security spending certainly have though.

Ah yes, the evil EPA. Who cares about clean air, soil, and water. The FREEEEE MARKET will take care of that. Yeah right.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 01:44 AM   #3710
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Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
This entire post is garbage. The US is NOTHING like Greece and never will be. How dare you so recklessly compare America to Greece. Spending on entitlement programs has not gone through the roof. Defense and homeland security spending certainly have though.
Unfunded liabilities for entitlements are estimated at $100 trillion to over $200 trillion. Military spending has grown too much in the past 10 years, but still only makes up 19% of spending, whereas SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and other entitlement and welfare programs make up 45% of the budget (Well actually the Democrat-controlled Senate hasn't passed a budget in over 1300 days, so I should say spending instead). The CBO's projects that at current growth rates Medicare and Medicaid alone will consume raise 19.3 percent of GDP by mid-century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
Ah yes, the evil EPA. Who cares about clean air, soil, and water. The FREEEEE MARKET will take care of that. Yeah right.
What free market? The US hasn't had anything close to resembling a free market in over a century.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 01:48 AM   #3711
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Originally Posted by Spam King View Post
Unfunded liabilities for entitlements are estimated at $100 trillion to over $200 trillion. Military spending has grown too much in the past 10 years, but still only makes up 19% of spending, whereas SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and other entitlement and welfare programs make up 45% of the budget (Well actually the Democrat-controlled Senate hasn't passed a budget in over 1300 days, so I should say spending instead). The CBO's projects that at current growth rates Medicare and Medicaid alone will consume raise 19.3 percent of GDP by mid-century.



What free market? The US hasn't had anything close to resembling a free market in over a century.
"Taxation is theft".


Go tell that to people in countries that have no, or little, taxation. Those countries look like shit.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:19 AM   #3712
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
"Taxation is theft".


Go tell that to people in countries that have no, or little, taxation. Those countries look like shit.
Nice use of the red herring fallacy. It isn't even true, though.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 04:35 AM   #3713
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Originally Posted by Spam King View Post
Nice use of the red herring fallacy. It isn't even true, though.
Prove it.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 07:50 AM   #3714
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The NEC is the area of the country that really need proper HSR, not California. It is there that the US government should have planned its first true HSR line as it has the highest probability of success and least chance to allow rural America and teaparty types to label it as a boondoggle and cause a big fuss over the waste of tax-payers dollars. I laughed when Obama tried to give Florida the $$ for the first HSR rail while ignoring the most densely populated region of the country. I just don't think he and his fellows know what the hell they are doing when it comes to rail.

Given the Acela ridership levels it is a no-brainer. The current Amtrak plan is ridiculously stupid with a time line that is far too long and far too expensive. I can't understand why the NEC plan has no funding and California does. It is just preposterous when the NEC has the best history of medium speed rail in the US and is a proven success story. If California is a flop it will doom HSR everywhere in this country for eons.

Actually, instead of reverting to steel-wheel technology, the government should copy Japan and just build a maglev line. Why invest in technology that is going to be obsolete soon? If Japan's line is successful, you can bet that Europe and China will start converting some lines to Maglev to gain the extra speed. With a blank slate, we should just leapfrog this HSR phase that we have basically missed out on, leapfrog most other countries and invest in the future, not the past. It will cost us more when we realize that we need to upgrade our trains to maglev someday when HSR will be considered pokey.

Again, the NEC is the place for HSR of any kind, Californians are too in love with their cars, so much so that it has become a cultural thing. Look at LA for example!

Last edited by aquablue; December 22nd, 2012 at 07:58 AM.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 07:57 AM   #3715
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You can't convert a line to maglev, you need to completely rebuild it.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 08:00 AM   #3716
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You can't convert a line to maglev, you need to completely rebuild it.
Right. I meant, rebuild the original right-of-way into maglev.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 08:18 AM   #3717
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Right. I meant, rebuild the original right-of-way into maglev.
I would think that building a maglev line in the NEC would involve much more than just converting the existing line- there are many curves on the existing route that would have to be bypassed. And what about the low speed conventional rail commuter services that also use the route? Likely a completely new route that roughly parallels the existing alignment would have to be built, at tremendous expense, as real estate is expensive there.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 08:28 AM   #3718
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Yes, the initial reason for not building in the NEC HSR first was expense. The NextGen plan that Amtrak put out a few months ago detailed a new route, and put the whole thing at something like $150 billion, which could easily increase on the scale of California's, so it could end up near $300 billion (though that does seem extraordinarily expensive, even if this is the U.S.). The California project is supposed to be a budgetary toe in the water, with the hope that, if it is successful, it will seem way too plainly obvious that the northeast needs it.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:12 PM   #3719
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Yes, the initial reason for not building in the NEC HSR first was expense. The NextGen plan that Amtrak put out a few months ago detailed a new route, and put the whole thing at something like $150 billion, which could easily increase on the scale of California's, so it could end up near $300 billion (though that does seem extraordinarily expensive, even if this is the U.S.). The California project is supposed to be a budgetary toe in the water, with the hope that, if it is successful, it will seem way too plainly obvious that the northeast needs it.
Its 2 main routes , the current NEC and the NEW NEC , then 4 mini high speed lines which is between 90-125mph , 6 new or upgraded services like the Lackawanna line or the Downstate delaware line so of which will be done by the state , the Electrification will be done by Amtrak. Then there are the Connector projects like the North - South Tunnel in Boston and the Kearny JCT upgrade in New Jersey and maybe Grand Central service. When you add it up its about 2151 miles of High Speed & Intercity Rail lines....the New England projects are the cheapest , along with Delaware , Pennsylvania and Maryland... About 60 billion is needed in and around NYC and Boston..., DC needs about 8 billion.... Pennsylvania needs about 5 billion , Delaware needs about 1 billion , mostly done by the state , same with Rhode Island both should be done by 2020....

Connecticut needs about 20 billion between the upgrades to the current NEC which isn't all that much aside from a few bridges that need to be replacing and adding a 3rd track East of New Haven that should be done by 2020....
The Knowledge Corridor Phase 1 which brings speeds up to 110mph is underway and should open by 2015 , Phase 2 would be electrification and adding a 3rd track along with more stations speed increased to 125mph... That is only expected to cost an extra 200 million to do , but they need to wait for the I-84 Upgrades in Hartford to really make that mini HSR. The New NEC would cut across CT following I-84 , at a cost of 11 billion...who knows when that will happen. The NIMBYS are already lining up , however if you add commuter rail service along the corridor you might be able to silence them... While 4 tracking is a pain it be worth it , that corridor badly needs commuter rail...

Massucheets upgrades will be 4 tracking from Providence to Boston , a New North-South Tunnel and Expanding South Station. The East-West Corridor will be 3-4 tracks and Electrified along with a connector restored for Cape Cod seasonal service...

By 2025 if everything goes as planned we will have already spent 45-70 billion of that plan....New Hampshire just went blue again so expect the Downeaster to see double tracking through that state and a few other lines and projects. Same with Vermont 3 new or Upgraded services are planned by 2020 thats about 2 billion in projects.
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 10:06 AM   #3720
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Yes, the initial reason for not building in the NEC HSR first was expense. The NextGen plan that Amtrak put out a few months ago detailed a new route, and put the whole thing at something like $150 billion, which could easily increase on the scale of California's, so it could end up near $300 billion (though that does seem extraordinarily expensive, even if this is the U.S.). The California project is supposed to be a budgetary toe in the water, with the hope that, if it is successful, it will seem way too plainly obvious that the northeast needs it.
that's ridiculous. Of course it will be successful, we don't need to wait decades for the Cali system to find out. Amtrak has a huge market share on the NYC to wash, route and turns a profit. How much more evidence do u need that the people would ride hsr on the nec? It is far more of a sure thing than the Cali system in terms of ridership. It is also far denser a route and connects more cities that have decent transit systems to ferry people around. NEC, despite its added expense, seems to me the better place to build the first line by far. I wish politicians would start seeing sense in this country!!

Spreading the hsr money all over the country was a mistake. All the cash should have gone into one line. Talk about spreading yourself to thin and then having little to show for it!!
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