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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #3821
slipperydog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Wow; that is a tragically bad report.

First of all, they mention that Vermont is a small, low-population state, and then wonder why there are so few passengers on the train.
If it's low population, then why would you earmark millions to upgrade their rail?

Quote:
Second, they say "it's been three years since the start of California's high-speed rail initiative, and nothing's happened" as if any similar project anywhere has ever been completed in that short a time span; certainly to expect that sort of alacrity in a place like the U.S. is just stupid.
I don't think anyone was expecting anything to be "completed". It's the fact that millions of so-called "stimulus" have gone absolutely nowhere. Nothing is even under construction.

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Third, they talk on and on about millions of tax dollars gone into minor rail improvements without ever putting that figure into perspective, either against international rail projects or even U.S. spending on roads.
Roads carry more people. And we are talking about billions, not millions.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #3822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperydog View Post
If it's low population, then why would you earmark millions to upgrade their rail?



I don't think anyone was expecting anything to be "completed". It's the fact that millions of so-called "stimulus" have gone absolutely nowhere. Nothing is even under construction.



Roads carry more people. And we are talking about billions, not millions.
Roads carried people in America because 1) the government massively subsidized them to begin with and 2) auto companies demolished the railways and forced everyone to buy cars.

The NEC proves that can rail work in the US, just like any other place in the world.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 07:06 PM   #3823
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Roads carried people in America because 1) the government massively subsidized them to begin with and 2) auto companies demolished the railways and forced everyone to buy cars.

The NEC proves that can rail work in the US, just like any other place in the world.
"Rail" can mean a lot of things. No one is advocating ditching Amtrak.

Part of the problem is what the young gentleman in the video explained. It was 9 hours to New York by rail, 7 by bus, and 5 by car. Spending billions to make a few train lines run 28 minutes faster isn't really a tenable position.
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Old January 26th, 2013, 11:18 PM   #3824
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"Rail" can mean a lot of things. No one is advocating ditching Amtrak.

Part of the problem is what the young gentleman in the video explained. It was 9 hours to New York by rail, 7 by bus, and 5 by car. Spending billions to make a few train lines run 28 minutes faster isn't really a tenable position.
If you think that $52 million can make a Civil-war era railway become suddenly competitive with modern transportation, you're going to have a bad time...

Before they funded this thing, the Ethan Allan service was logging some 11,000 minutes in delays a year; with the upgrade, that has dropped to a little more than 130. For one thing, delays are the biggest turnoff for potential riders--it's the only reason why CRH stands a chance with cheaper airlines, and it's the reason why the service is seeing such low ridership; because when you have a service that's constantly running late by a couple of hours, few people will want to ride it; but once the service becomes punctual, ridership jumps (10% within a month).

That's why they want to keep funding this line--because after one gets rid of delays, the next goal is to decrease travel times.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 12:31 AM   #3825
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That train is stupidily slow, it is slower then the slowest trains in the Netherlands. If it must attract more passengers it must be electrified, that would hugely improve speed, and it's frequency must be brought to at least one train every two hours.
For example, the Thalys, a real high speed train, between Amsterdam and Paris, a distance similar to Montpellier - NYC, takes 3:16 to cover the distance. A standard IC (with a top speed at average 100MPH) would take around 5 hours, depending on the number of stops.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #3826
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Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
That train is stupidily slow, it is slower then the slowest trains in the Netherlands. If it must attract more passengers it must be electrified, that would hugely improve speed, and it's frequency must be brought to at least one train every two hours.
For example, the Thalys, a real high speed train, between Amsterdam and Paris, a distance similar to Montpellier - NYC, takes 3:16 to cover the distance. A standard IC (with a top speed at average 100MPH) would take around 5 hours, depending on the number of stops.
That's not really all that fast for a dedicated HSR line. Comparing a brand new line costing billions with a rural more than 100 years old line in the USA is not particularly fair.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:00 AM   #3827
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Of course it's not fair, but it outlines what HSR can do. The track is not optimal, but a fairly average HSR performance. A train that would run on 100% HSR with only 1 or 2 stops could do it in about 2 hours.

The more realistic time, 5 hours would be more realistic for a european style upgrade. That would include electrification and a standard maximum speed of 100mph. Cost wise? About $500m for electrification and probably $5m-$10m per train. 6 or 7 trains would be needed for a service every two hours.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:06 AM   #3828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
The more realistic time, 5 hours would be more realistic for a european style upgrade. That would include electrification and a standard maximum speed of 100mph. Cost wise? About $500m for electrification and probably $5m-$10m per train. 6 or 7 trains would be needed for a service every two hours.
I'm not familiar with that particular area, but I bet it would cost a lot more than that. Most likely the line alignment doesn't allow anything approaching 100 mph. Plus construction of infrastructure in US in general costs a lot more than in Europe for various political and technical reasons.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:48 AM   #3829
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Originally Posted by DingeZ View Post
Of course it's not fair, but it outlines what HSR can do. The track is not optimal, but a fairly average HSR performance. A train that would run on 100% HSR with only 1 or 2 stops could do it in about 2 hours.

The more realistic time, 5 hours would be more realistic for a european style upgrade. That would include electrification and a standard maximum speed of 100mph. Cost wise? About $500m for electrification and probably $5m-$10m per train. 6 or 7 trains would be needed for a service every two hours.
This is the base network which New England and Eastern New York are currently building , all tracks , stations , bridges , tunnels will be upgraded to handle 110-125mph then depending on ridership and investment along the corridors Electrification will occur. The Knowledge Corridor and Empire Corridor would be the first to be Electrified due to Ridership and investment , then the Ethan Allen and Vermonter which would be easy due to them being extension of both lines. There are High Speed lines proposed that would run from Albany to Montreal with one or 2 stops in between on their own ROW and Montreal to Boston via Manchester and Concord. They would share ROW with other Intercity and regional trains once they approach there main cities...

Electrification of the Knowledge Corridor/Vermonter which 302 miles would only cost 200 Million , similar for the Empire/Ethan Allen which is 315 miles. The Full build out is service levels for the Vermonter are 10 roundtrips a day....the Knowledge Corridor would be turned into a Regional Rail with up to 34 roundtrips a day. The Empire Corridor would run every 2hrs ,Ethan Allen would have 15 round trips a day depending on the season. Eventually all the Trunk lines in New England will operate with 15-30 Round trips a day.....that is the long term goal and a popularly one along with reasonable commuter fares.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 01:50 AM   #3830
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I'm not familiar with that particular area, but I bet it would cost a lot more than that. Most likely the line alignment doesn't allow anything approaching 100 mph. Plus construction of infrastructure in US in general costs a lot more than in Europe for various political and technical reasons.
The line can handle up to 125mph if it were upgraded and if they used Tilt trains...at least south of White River JCT. North of White River JCT it can handle 90mph....in Massachusetts and Connecticut it can handle up to 135mph.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 02:38 AM   #3831
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipperydog View Post
If it's low population, then why would you earmark millions to upgrade their rail?
Because, as others have said, this line is the first step in a plan to have genuine high-speed service between New York and Montreal.

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I don't think anyone was expecting anything to be "completed". It's the fact that millions of so-called "stimulus" have gone absolutely nowhere. Nothing is even under construction.
But that just isn't true. It was mentioned that there's been a decrease in the journey time. This is an increase that you don't see, per se, unless you have a map which includes both alignment and federal rail quality class before and after improvements. If you want to see construction, you need to shell out a lot more money.

If anything, someone of your line of thought on this issue ought to be happy to see that they didn't hop right into a genuine high speed line when there isn't a huge service base.

Quote:
Roads carry more people. And we are talking about billions, not millions.
In fact, they don't; per mile, rail can carry many, many more people than road. That it doesn't in this country just goes to show you how wonky things are.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:18 AM   #3832
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Various New England Railway Projects underway or to be completed by 2020

Projected Name ------ Length ----- Stations ----- Top Speed ---- Service Type ---- Electrfication/Power Source

Vermont

Vermonter Express ---- 180 Miles ---- 10 (all to be upgraded) --- upgraded to 110-125mph --- Intercity --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Ethan Allen Express --- 173 Miles ---- 5 Current Stations / 5 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110-125mph --- Intercity ---- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


New Hampshire

Plymouth/Concord/Lowell line --- 125 Miles ---- 9 Current Stations/14 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Newburyport / Portsmouth line --- 60 Miles --- 12 Current Stations/3 New Stations --- Upgraded to 90mph --- Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Eastern Main line --- 70 Miles --- 16 Current Stations/4 New Stations --- Upgraded to 125mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


Maine

Downeaster Extension --- 194 Miles --- 12 Current Stations/12 New Stations --- Upgraded to 125mph --- Intercity Rail --- Electrification down the Road at : 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Lewiston-Portland-Gorham line --- 50 Miles --- 13 New Stations --- Upgraded to 80mph --- Regional Rail --- Diesel Multiple Unit
Rockland line --- 57 Miles --- 3 Current Stations/7 New Stations --- Upgraded to 80mph --- Regional Rail --- Diesel Multiple Unit


Massachusetts

Greenfield/Fitchberg line --- 105 Miles --- 18 Current Stations/5 New Stations --- Upgraded to 90mph --- Regional Rail --- Diesel Multiple Unit
Knowledge Corridor --- 123 miles --- 9 Current Stations/13 New Stations --- Upgraded to 125mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Middleborough / Cape Cod line --- 80 Miles --- 17 Current Stations/5 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
South Coast Network --- 92 Miles --- 19 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity&Regional Rail --- Electrification at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Pittsfield/Worcester Line --- 151 Miles --- 21 Current Stations/13 New Stations --- Upgraded to 125mph --- Intercity&Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Providence Line --- 40 Miles --- 13 Current Stations/2 New Stations --- Upgraded to 180mph --- Intercity&Regional Rail --- Electrification at : 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


Rhode Island

South County line --- 44 Miles --- 3 Current Stations/12 New Stations --- Upgraded to 170mph --- Intercity&Regional Rail --- Electrification at : 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Woonsocket Branch --- 64 Miles --- 10 New Stations --- Upgraded to 90mph --- Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


Connecticut

Knowledge Corridor --- 123 miles --- 9 Current Stations/13 New Stations --- Upgraded to 125mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification Down the road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Central Corridor --- 97 Miles --- 10 New Stations --- Upgraded to 80mph --- Regional Rail --- Diesel Multiple Unit
Shore (New Haven) line --- 100 Miles --- 43 Current Stations/6 New Stations --- Upgraded to 135mph --- Intercity&Regional Rail --- Electrification at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Danbury Branch --- 38 Miles --- 8 Current Stations/5 New Stations --- Upgraded to 80mph --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
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Old January 27th, 2013, 09:04 AM   #3833
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go for it new england! sounds good


given both the political/economic realities and the relatively low population numbers in new england, upgrading to quasi-high speed sounds like the optimal solution there!
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Old January 27th, 2013, 09:26 AM   #3834
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If a train can maintain 79 mph for the entire duration of the journey (excluding station arrival decceleration), this would already make passenger rail hugely competitive. Taiwan's trains travel no faster than 80 km/h and are still hugely competitive.

Did a little research: 3 kilometers of modern commuter rail in Taiwan cost approx $10 million USD. $52 million for an entire line is ludicrously low. I'm surprised that they were able to do what they were able to do such a modest budget.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #3835
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Despite what Amtrak's planners (*ahem Market East, Charles Center, Inland Gateway*) would have you believe, Amtrak has been able to do a lot with modest money for many years now. The Keystone Corridor east of Harrisburg, the Wolverine Corridor, and the Chicago-StL corridor are all seeing improvements with relatively modest money.
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Old January 29th, 2013, 03:20 AM   #3836
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Various Mid-Atlantic Railway Projects underway or to be completed by 2020

Projected Name ------ Length ----- Stations ----- Top Speed ---- Service Type ---- Electrfication/Power Source

New York

Empire Corridor/Hudson Line --- 142 Miles --- 36 Current Stations / 5 New Stations --- Upgraded to 135mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Northeast Corridor/New Haven/Hell Gate line --- 30 Miles --- 6 Current Stations/8 New Stations --- Upgraded to 135mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification upgraded to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Main line --- 95 Miles --- 29 Current Stations/4 New Stations --- Upgraded to 100mph --- Regional Rail --- Electrification at 750VDC / Diesel Multiple Unit


New Jersey

Lackawanna Corridor --- 195 Miles --- 12 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Gateway Network --- 7 Miles --- 1 Current Station --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification upgraded to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
West Trenton line --- 27 Miles --- 6 New Stations --- Upgraded to 90mph --- Regional Rail --- Diesel Multiple Unit
MOM Network --- 151 Miles --- 28 New Stations --- Upgraded to 90mph --- Intercity&Regional Rail --- Electrification at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz & Diesel Multiple Units
Northeast Corridor --- 60 Miles --- 17 Current Stations/1 New Station --- Upgraded to 220mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail ---Electrification upgrade to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


Pennsylvania

Lackawanna Corridor --- 195 Miles --- 12 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Keystone Corridor --- 101 Miles --- 33 Current Stations/7 New Stations --- Upgraded to 125mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail ---Electrification upgrade to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Northeast Corridor line --- 70 Miles --- 36 Current Stations/3 New Stations --- Upgraded to 200mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail ---Electrification upgrade to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


Delaware

Northeast Corridor line --- 19 Miles --- 4 Current Stations/3 New Stations --- Upgraded to 200mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail ---Electrification upgrade to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Downstate Corridor --- 122 Miles --- 10 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
Milford Branch --- 50 Miles --- 5 New Stations --- Upgraded to 110mph --- Intercity Rail --- Electrification down the Road at 25 kV AC, 50 Hz


Maryland

Penn line --- 90 Miles --- 13 Current Stations/6 New Stations --- Upgraded to 200mph --- Intercity & Regional Rail --- Electrification Upgraded to 25 kV AC, 50 Hz
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Old January 29th, 2013, 07:15 AM   #3837
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Electrification of the Knowledge Corridor/Vermonter which 302 miles would only cost 200 Million , similar for the Empire/Ethan Allen which is 315 miles.
What basis are you using for that cost figure?
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Old January 29th, 2013, 09:51 AM   #3838
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i would like to see a similar renaissance of PT projects, subways and trams and buses in the US, some cities like Phoenix really need it
or is that just my myopic view?
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Old January 29th, 2013, 10:56 AM   #3839
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What basis are you using for that cost figure?
Past Studies and Industry Experts ive asked said Electrification costs usually only add 50-150 million ontop the project. The Cost of it for the Knowledge Corridor between Brattleboro and New Haven is about 100 Million and another 100 Million for the rest of the line up to St. Albans... Originally it was supposed to be Electrified from the get go however the Obama Admin shortchanged the corridor so they went with Phase 1 Diesel , not Full Phase 3 Electrified with all the stations.... The Ethan Allen Extension is being done entirely by Vermont due to the fact that the Feds refused to pay for it. The whole New England Network only received 3 billion , but requested over 25 billion..... The Northeast as a whole where Rail makes sense the most has been shortchanged , only receiving 15 billion out of the 70 billion requested.... As a result Many projects have stalled or slowed....
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Old January 29th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #3840
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After CAHSR, another area where a promising HSL could be built is the Texas Triangle. They got favorable terrain, plenty of new ROW for tracks except on the final approaches to each major city (San Antonio, Austin, Houston, Dallas-Ft. Worth).

Apparently there was once a plan of a line San Antonio-Austin-Dallas with another branch Austin-Houston.
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