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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 6th, 2013, 09:14 PM   #3861
Don31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1772 View Post
And how do you propose your precious federal government would pay for such a thing?
You do realize that we are in tremendous debt, right?
Why don't you go back and re-read what I wrote before you write something. Where did I say the feds should pay for it. I said the private sector most likely could'nt, and that there is no political will in Washington for it.

And yes, I actually do realize our debt situation.

Thanks for coming in.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 09:15 PM   #3862
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We spend about 60-120 billion on entitlements and another 1.5 Trillion on Defense I think we can afford High Speed Rail and Transit.... This country has mental issues when It comes to investing in the future...its mainly from the older generations which have ruined and mucked up the country , if this country or any country in general was run by the younger fresher generation this country would be a hell of alot different.
Agreed. Although I guess I'm one of the exceptions of the older generation.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 11:37 PM   #3863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
We spend about 60-120 billion on entitlements and another 1.5 Trillion on Defense I think we can afford High Speed Rail and Transit.... This country has mental issues when It comes to investing in the future...its mainly from the older generations which have ruined and mucked up the country , if this country or any country in general was run by the younger fresher generation this country would be a hell of alot different.
Yeah, thing is, we have a "young and fresh" prez now, things ain't getting better...

Anyhow, this is off-topic.
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Old February 6th, 2013, 11:41 PM   #3864
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Yeah, thing is, we have a "young and fresh" prez now, things ain't getting better...

Anyhow, this is off-topic.
Hes not really young and is being held back by the old status quo majority....but your right this is off topic...
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Old February 7th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #3865
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Anyways, that's a logical fallacy...
The "debt" is a carrot. It's a long-term issue and that prognosis is fine.
It's the short term issue (the stick if you will) that's the issue. If you handle the deficit, the debt disappears - also erodes with growth.

So it's really silly, to simply say we won't spend anything to pay the debt, which we won't pay unless there's growth....which won't happen if we do nothing.

Anyways, this is perfectly affordable, in the context of what we would receive in return (as that's how investments work).
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Old February 7th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #3866
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Well, imported oil drag USA economic balance on the dark side, so anything that will reduce (import) oil dependency for a reasonable price tag will improve economic overall.
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Old February 8th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #3867
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Well, imported oil drag USA economic balance on the dark side, so anything that will reduce (import) oil dependency for a reasonable price tag will improve economic overall.
Not really, it will be a bad for taxpayers.
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Old February 8th, 2013, 04:42 AM   #3868
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Not really, it will be a bad for taxpayers.
In the short term, obviously. But in the long term, future generations will suffer more if we don't start to at least slowly ween ourselves from this international dependency.
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Old February 8th, 2013, 11:35 AM   #3869
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Not really, it will be a bad for taxpayers.
But isn't taxpayers will be the one who will suffer from higher gas prices both directly (gas for auto) and indirectly (gas as part of price of buyable stuff)?
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Old February 8th, 2013, 06:56 PM   #3870
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In the short term, obviously. But in the long term, future generations will suffer more if we don't start to at least slowly ween ourselves from this international dependency.
Absolutely agreed.
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Old February 8th, 2013, 10:29 PM   #3871
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But isn't taxpayers will be the one who will suffer from higher gas prices both directly (gas for auto) and indirectly (gas as part of price of buyable stuff)?

Yes, but this is gonna make things even worse than ever

we need to not only cut spending overseas, but here at home, i'm tired of the borrowing and spending, thank goodness rick scott did the right thing to kill the HSR in florida, because we can't simply afford it, just like the same people who built that marlins stadium that we can't afford.
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Old February 8th, 2013, 10:31 PM   #3872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
We spend about 60-120 billion on entitlements and another 1.5 Trillion on Defense I think we can afford High Speed Rail and Transit.... This country has mental issues when It comes to investing in the future...its mainly from the older generations which have ruined and mucked up the country , if this country or any country in general was run by the younger fresher generation this country would be a hell of alot different.
It will be different if we get the government out of the way of our business.

thank goodness a private sector company called florida east coast railway is building their version of the HSR without any benefit from the taxpayers.

and let's not forget we need to protect farmlands as well.
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Democrips and rebloodlicans aka democrats and republicans, two wings of the same bird of prey

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Old February 8th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #3873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
Yes, but this is gonna make things even worse than ever

we need to not only cut spending overseas, but here at home, i'm tired of the borrowing and spending, thank goodness rick scott did the right thing to kill the HSR in florida, because we can't simply afford it, just like the same people who built that marlins stadium that we can't afford.
The problem is, the cost of doing nothing is not zero. As world move from cheap oil to expensive oil, cost of supporting oil-dependent infrastructure like airports and highways will keep rising, so those who will have a replacement infrastructure like electrical railways will be the winner.

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Old February 8th, 2013, 11:49 PM   #3874
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Not to mention that now is the time to take on more debt, during a recession, when the costs of everything (labor, materials, interest on the debt, etc.) are depressed, and the multiplier effect for each tax dollar spent is greater than one.

You're looking at short and long-term positive economic and social effects in trade for an extra-long term economic risk; it's actually pretty damn close to a win-win.
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Old February 9th, 2013, 12:18 AM   #3875
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China is doing the right thing now getting their rail infrastructure built while it's cheap. I'm not sure what the problem is with building high speed rail in the U.S. when the U.S. has no problem expanding highways. Here in Texas instead of expanding Interstate 35 from north of Austin to Dallas they could have put a high speed rail train next to it.
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Old February 9th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #3876
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
China is doing the right thing now getting their rail infrastructure built while it's cheap. I'm not sure what the problem is with building high speed rail in the U.S. when the U.S. has no problem expanding highways. Here in Texas instead of expanding Interstate 35 from north of Austin to Dallas they could have put a high speed rail train next to it.
I feel like it's going to take an oil "crisis" before we actually get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post

It will be different if we get the government out of the way of our business.

thank goodness a private sector company called florida east coast railway is building their version of the HSR without any benefit from the taxpayers.

and let's not forget we need to protect farmlands as well.
This is such a "straw man" argument. And no disrespect, but it kills me when people employ it.

Since when has it been true that the government is incapable of investing in critical infrastructure? How is this destroying the market/economy? I mean,when has it ever been the case that they did NOT act in this manner....? They got us this far.

If private enterprise was so much more resourceful, why isn't the FAA privately run and managed by private airlines? Why don't airlines build and their own airports, monitor air traffic, and provide security? Why did the government build (and continue to maintain) highways?

People like to use this kind of argument, but if faced with the alternatives (removal of government subsidies on oil, distance based tolls on highways, steeper gasoline and automobile taxes, etc) that would actually pay for all these other forms of infrastructure, they'd be shouting from high heaven to put things back the way they were. But if we talk about mass/public transit or high speed rail, it's automatically written off as a boondoggle...

Hate to break it to you, but all infrastructure is subsidized with taxpayer money and, quite frankly, it'd be a much better use of our funds to invest in high speed rail.

It is cheaper to invest in this infrastructure. I don't know why people can't [refuse to] understand this...simple math, really.

It's much cheaper to maintain and provides better returns than highways (usually negative, since we often don't use tolls) or airlines.
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Old February 9th, 2013, 05:12 PM   #3877
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We can already see what happens when there are no alternatives to travel when oil spikes. Back when oil prices suddenly jumped back in the summer of '11 (or was it '10?), America had a panic attack.

And the people in Taiwan? We just took the train.
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Old February 9th, 2013, 05:28 PM   #3878
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We can already see what happens when there are no alternatives to travel when oil spikes. Back when oil prices suddenly jumped back in the summer of '11 (or was it '10?), America had a panic attack.

And the people in Taiwan? We just took the train.
I'm thinking of something more along the lines of what happened in the 70s/80s
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Old February 9th, 2013, 08:48 PM   #3879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
I feel like it's going to take an oil "crisis" before we actually get it.



This is such a "straw man" argument. And no disrespect, but it kills me when people employ it.

Since when has it been true that the government is incapable of investing in critical infrastructure? How is this destroying the market/economy? I mean,when has it ever been the case that they did NOT act in this manner....? They got us this far.

If private enterprise was so much more resourceful, why isn't the FAA privately run and managed by private airlines? Why don't airlines build and their own airports, monitor air traffic, and provide security? Why did the government build (and continue to maintain) highways?

People like to use this kind of argument, but if faced with the alternatives (removal of government subsidies on oil, distance based tolls on highways, steeper gasoline and automobile taxes, etc) that would actually pay for all these other forms of infrastructure, they'd be shouting from high heaven to put things back the way they were. But if we talk about mass/public transit or high speed rail, it's automatically written off as a boondoggle...

Hate to break it to you, but all infrastructure is subsidized with taxpayer money and, quite frankly, it'd be a much better use of our funds to invest in high speed rail.

It is cheaper to invest in this infrastructure. I don't know why people can't [refuse to] understand this...simple math, really.

It's much cheaper to maintain and provides better returns than highways (usually negative, since we often don't use tolls) or airlines.

Not really, it will get worse, HSR is just as expensive as highways and airlines.
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Left/Right it doesn't matter anymore, you still get bigger government, no matter who's in power.

Democrips and rebloodlicans aka democrats and republicans, two wings of the same bird of prey

thankfully i'm a libertarian constitutionalist.

#standwithrand

R.I.P. QuantumX, you will never be forgotten.

Last edited by skyscraperhighrise; February 9th, 2013 at 08:54 PM.
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Old February 9th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #3880
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It will get worse, the point of question - how much? The European experience show that HSR already can compete with airlines on medium distances, and with decline of oil the favor will move to the means of transportation that (a) can be powered with alternative sources of power (b) use less energy overall. Rail is just perfect for that - you only face aerodynamical resistance once per 500-1000 passengers, now once per 5-50 like in case of cars and coaches. And car and coaches still can be electrical and carry some useful passengers/cargo, especially if they are grid-connected (trolleybuses, yeah), but the electrical planes are jokes in terms of useful load :-(
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