daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 13th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #3921
b4z
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don31 View Post
Agreed. Look at the airline's steadily decreasing share of the NYC to Boston and the NYC to Washington markets. Commercial flight only makes sense for trips of 1,000 miles or more.
The short distance handwriting is on the wall for the airlines. They've got another 20 years at best. hSR from London st. Pancras to Paris, nord is both a revelation and a non event. Perfect comfort. Once Americans get a taste of it, it's curtains. Perhaps Boeing should start building train sets and the airlines look at managing rail?LOL

I think the biggest issues for us while be the electrification. iIRC the speed change from 186 to 199mph also included additional nuclear plants.( in France)
b4z no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 13th, 2013, 05:31 PM   #3922
Don31
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 94
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4z View Post
The short distance handwriting is on the wall for the airlines. They've got another 20 years at best. hSR from London st. Pancras to Paris, nord is both a revelation and a non event. Perfect comfort. Once Americans get a taste of it, it's curtains. Perhaps Boeing should start building train sets and the airlines look at managing rail?LOL

I think the biggest issues for us while be the electrification. iIRC the speed change from 186 to 199mph also included additional nuclear plants.( in France)
I think 20years would be stretching it. I think it would be more like 10. Another advantage to rail, at least here in the Northeast Corridor, is that the train will bring you into the heart of downtown while the airports are located outside, on the fringe, requiring a transfer to rail or a long taxi ride. And yes, the huge cost of electrification is a big issue.
Don31 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2013, 05:34 PM   #3923
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Northeast Upgrade Report

http://www.nec-commission.com/wp-con...n_20130123.pdf
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2013, 11:29 PM   #3924
b4z
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 1

I've never heard anybody say they hated being a passenger on HSR. I've heard people say they hated driving, flying and riding in a conventional train.
There aren't too many people against HSR in this thread but maybe this will gives them a little perspective.
My wife and I have done HSR twice. Zurich to Paris Nord(north) in 2008. A 4 minute walk from out hotel to the station and a 10 minute cab ride from Nord station to our hotel in Paris a block from the Louvre.
In 2009, London st. Pancras station to Paris Nord a 2:15 ride. 10 minute cab ride from Trafalgar Square to st. Pancras. A 10 minute cab ride from Paris Nord to our hotel 3 blocks from the Louvre( went to see the douchebag Lance Armstrong).
Now if anyone thinks it would have been economical and time friendly for us to have done the Gatwick/ Heathrow thing to Charles de Gualle they have another agenda or they are against everything.
bTW the last 2 times we left from Charles de Gualle there were strikes and our planes left almost 2 hours late.
hSR is untouchable for distances under 4-500 miles.

Last edited by b4z; February 13th, 2013 at 11:52 PM.
b4z no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2013, 11:48 PM   #3925
b4z
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 1

Funny story: friend of ours did a little France/ Belgium trip with a school friend of hers. They were meeting another friend in Brussels so they booked the train from Paris.
When she got back, I asked how she liked the High Speed Train ride? I got this quizzical look. "I don't know anything about that," she said, "It was Thalys." I replied busting out laughing, "you went almost 200 mph in a train and didn't even know it!!"
Not sure if she was hungover and slept through it or it was just a non event.

Last edited by b4z; February 13th, 2013 at 11:53 PM.
b4z no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2013, 11:51 PM   #3926
hammersklavier
Feral
 
hammersklavier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 597
Likes (Received): 423

Heck, it's already happening. Even as soon as we get a taste of 110 mph rail, we want more, more, more...It's the unflinching, unbending political will of places that don't have it that's holding us back.
hammersklavier no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #3927
b4z
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 37
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Heck, it's already happening. Even as soon as we get a taste of 110 mph rail, we want more, more, more...It's the unflinching, unbending political will of places that don't have it that's holding us back.
My interest is in twin dedicated lines designed for 186-220 mph. 110 or even 150 on straightways is not HSR and not much of a step forward.
b4z no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 04:56 AM   #3928
G5man
High Speed Rail fan
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 337
Likes (Received): 37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
I read that and was disappointed in the New Haven line section upgrades. Are there certain regulations or would it primarily be engineering challenges that prevent building high-bridges along the New Haven line? The maintenance costs they cite and bridge operations will come back in the future so why not replace the bridges with high bridges? Now have the substations been dealt with or would that be a part of the catenary replacement? I am glad that the critical infrastructure upgrades are a part of this and progress is being made in many more areas than just what was listed for SOGR on the Infrastructure Plan from 2010.
G5man no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 06:37 AM   #3929
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Quote:
Originally Posted by G5man View Post
I read that and was disappointed in the New Haven line section upgrades. Are there certain regulations or would it primarily be engineering challenges that prevent building high-bridges along the New Haven line? The maintenance costs they cite and bridge operations will come back in the future so why not replace the bridges with high bridges? Now have the substations been dealt with or would that be a part of the catenary replacement? I am glad that the critical infrastructure upgrades are a part of this and progress is being made in many more areas than just what was listed for SOGR on the Infrastructure Plan from 2010.
The CTDOT seems to be taking the cheaper way out , Amtrak for the most part is building fixed bridges....or replacing them.... Its taken CTDOT almost 20 years to replace the New Haven line Catenary , where Amtrak , NJT and SEPTA have done similar Stretches in 5 years.... Some of the Bridges you can't replace with a higher level fixed bridge due to the surrounding approaches like Norwalk which is very complex due the nearby Danbury Interchange and South Norwalk overpass and Station. That Bridge is in very good shape , all it needs is a rehabilitation and paint job. Same with the Saugatuck River Bridge which is in Bridgeport and was heavily upgraded in the 90s..... As for Substations about half of them along the Amtrak Network have been replaced , the rest are about to be replaced , the entire corridor is being prepped for 25 kV AC at 60 Hz. In PA they need to build a New High Voltage line to feed the NEC system from the Power Plants in Central PA , thats underway as we speak.... Constant Catenary replacement is underway from Northern PA to New Brunswick , they need to fix a few of the plans before they do the rest to New Rochelle like the Elizabeth Viaduct shift , Newark upgrades , Gateway Program and Hell Gate line upgrade.... Hopefully these kinks will be fixed by the end of the year...
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 07:33 PM   #3930
Don31
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 94
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
they need to fix a few of the plans before they do the rest to New Rochelle like the Elizabeth Viaduct shift , Newark upgrades , Gateway Program and Hell Gate line upgrade.... Hopefully these kinks will be fixed by the end of the year...

Nexis, could you please clarify for me - are you saying all of that will be physically complete by the end of the year of just the conceptual planning for them?
Don31 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 10:23 PM   #3931
JamesBill
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 0

I am not convinced on HSR and was curious if someone could clear up a few things.

1. HSR will mainly compete with airlines? I personally would be willing to pay more for HSR than airlines, but talking to people it seems they are mostly under the impression HSR would cost the same as current rail transport.

2. Are there any HSR lines in the world (>250km/h) with line length servicing small population cities like the proposal? San Antonio to El Paso would be mostly pass though traffic most likely from Houston to LA. Connecting 24 million people with 1,550 miles of track. (San Antonio, Houston Pheonix LA) A Beijing-Shanghai-Hong Kong line is shorter and services so many people I ran out of fingers and toes.

3. How elastic is the maintenance costs if ridership on a line drops. Airlines can drop flights and reallocate resources, rail cannot and maintenance costs will go down with less traffic but how significantly?

4. Speaking of maintenance costs, the track technology is typically upfront costs vs maintenance costs. Will the compromise be decided by estimated ridership? How easy is it to upgrade/downgrade these decisions? Are you stuck in the choice if the bottom drops out of a city or another area goes "Silicon Valley" on you?
JamesBill no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 11:06 PM   #3932
XAN_
Registered User
 
XAN_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,034
Likes (Received): 760

Well, most rail maintenance standards based on how much weight moved via the track, so if you are decreasing amount of trains per day, you also lengthen maintenance cycle (e.g. many repairs are done each x tonnes, not x months). Of course some stuff and maintence are still fixed (signals, dispatching), but thanks to modern technology it's not that much.
__________________
"I'm lost but still I know//There is another world"
-H. Kürsch, 1995
"Well, we all know there's no other side"
-H. Kürsch, 2002
XAN_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 14th, 2013, 11:13 PM   #3933
JamesBill
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Well, most rail maintenance standards based on how much weight moved via the track, so if you are decreasing amount of trains per day, you also lengthen maintenance cycle (e.g. many repairs are done each x tonnes, not x months). Of course some stuff and maintence are still fixed (signals, dispatching), but thanks to modern technology it's not that much.
I thought for HSR it was based mostly on rail speed and the technology level of the track.


Does HSR also require daily inspection for misalignment and obstruction no matter how much traffic?
JamesBill no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 12:17 AM   #3934
aquaticko
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 1,995
Likes (Received): 1031

For high-speed rail, the lines are almost universally continuously-welded rail, the ties are made of concrete so they're less susceptible to warping, and there are various techniques for either constructing and maintaining the track bed that make it quite stable over time (including ballast-less track).
aquaticko no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 12:21 AM   #3935
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBill View Post
I am not convinced on HSR and was curious if someone could clear up a few things.

1. HSR will mainly compete with airlines? I personally would be willing to pay more for HSR than airlines, but talking to people it seems they are mostly under the impression HSR would cost the same as current rail transport.
Yes, but it also tends to generate completely new traffic whic didn't exist before at all. In Europe ticket prices on average are similar or a bit lower than flying. In the optimal range (ca 150-400 miles) it is both faster and more pleasant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBill View Post
2. Are there any HSR lines in the world (>250km/h) with line length servicing small population cities like the proposal? San Antonio to El Paso would be mostly pass though traffic most likely from Houston to LA. Connecting 24 million people with 1,550 miles of track. (San Antonio, Houston Pheonix LA) A Beijing-Shanghai-Hong Kong line is shorter and services so many people I ran out of fingers and toes.
There could be some stations for smaller cities in between, but HSR makes most sense economically conecting large (1 million+) cities. Some of the most succesful operational lines: Tokyo-Osaka, Paris-Lyon, Paris-London, Madrid-Barcelona. Houston-Dallas would work great I think. Building it over empty plains of middle America is probably just railfans fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBill View Post
3. How elastic is the maintenance costs if ridership on a line drops. Airlines can drop flights and reallocate resources, rail cannot and maintenance costs will go down with less traffic but how significantly?

4. Speaking of maintenance costs, the track technology is typically upfront costs vs maintenance costs. Will the compromise be decided by estimated ridership? How easy is it to upgrade/downgrade these decisions? Are you stuck in the choice if the bottom drops out of a city or another area goes "Silicon Valley" on you?
I'm not a technical expert, but your comparison is not quite proper. Rail lines are like airports with some fixed maintenance costs and no easy way to downsize. Airlines are like train operating companies - trains could be realocated to other places if needed easily enough.

If you build a track for 300 km/h then running slower is no problem. On the other hand upgrading a track built for say 200 km/h to 300 km/h would need massive investment, almost like building a new line.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #3936
Silver Swordsman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 371
Likes (Received): 101

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBill View Post
I thought for HSR it was based mostly on rail speed and the technology level of the track.


Does HSR also require daily inspection for misalignment and obstruction no matter how much traffic?
It depends on the type of track that you use. Tokaido Shinkansen, which uses traditional ballasted track, has to be realigned every night. Tracks that use ballastless slab track (rails are bolted directly to a concrete roadbed) do not need much realignment, but have extremely high upfront costs.

Everything related to cost about high speed rail is the upfront costs--since you have to draw a straight line you will have to have costly right-of-way acquisitions; and yes, the finesse required by the technology is expensive. However, maintenance costs are significantly less than other transportation infrastructure.


For all HSR systems, standard protocol has maintenance crews check the track for defects and problems during the night--it's the reason why true HSR services do not operate late at night. It is undeniable that a 300km/h HSR is much more costly to maintain compared to normal railways, but the cost is still lower than that of maintaining freeways and airports.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesBill View Post
I am not convinced on HSR and was curious if someone could clear up a few things.

1. HSR will mainly compete with airlines? I personally would be willing to pay more for HSR than airlines, but talking to people it seems they are mostly under the impression HSR would cost the same as current rail transport.

2. Are there any HSR lines in the world (>250km/h) with line length servicing small population cities like the proposal? San Antonio to El Paso would be mostly pass though traffic most likely from Houston to LA. Connecting 24 million people with 1,550 miles of track. (San Antonio, Houston Pheonix LA) A Beijing-Shanghai-Hong Kong line is shorter and services so many people I ran out of fingers and toes.

3. How elastic is the maintenance costs if ridership on a line drops. Airlines can drop flights and reallocate resources, rail cannot and maintenance costs will go down with less traffic but how significantly?

4. Speaking of maintenance costs, the track technology is typically upfront costs vs maintenance costs. Will the compromise be decided by estimated ridership? How easy is it to upgrade/downgrade these decisions? Are you stuck in the choice if the bottom drops out of a city or another area goes "Silicon Valley" on you?
1. HSR has the ability to completely eliminate short-haul flights due to convenience and comfort. The only way an airline can survive competition is by slashing prices below the HSR ticket price (which is very difficult). HSR also has the ability remove cars off freeways, especially long distance drives.

2. Many stations of Taiwan High Speed Rail service less than a million people--the average seems to be around 400-600 thousand, but according to my personal observations, ridership depends more on station connectivity rather than city size. As long as bus and metro connections are made, ridership should be adequate.
__________________
My Virtual-Model Railroad: High Speed Rail in RCT3
Project Anniversary: Click Here
Silver Swordsman no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 05:44 AM   #3937
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don31 View Post
Nexis, could you please clarify for me - are you saying all of that will be physically complete by the end of the year of just the conceptual planning for them?
It Needs to be Engineered , Plans call for a Muti-Modal Station to be built at Elizabeth along with Straightening... The Newark Upgrades are Engineered and like the Portal Bridge North are awaiting funding.... Most of this stuff should be done by 2025....
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 05:50 AM   #3938
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,529
Likes (Received): 21231

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post

If you build a track for 300 km/h then running slower is no problem. On the other hand upgrading a track built for say 200 km/h to 300 km/h would need massive investment, almost like building a new line.
It depends. If trains run too slow for the line's superelevation, the rides become uncomfortable for passengers.
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old February 15th, 2013, 07:34 PM   #3939
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,069
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It depends. If trains run too slow for the line's superelevation, the rides become uncomfortable for passengers.
Well on the french TGV network, trains have to slow down to 220 km/h (from
300) in case of severe weather conditions (ice blocks forming under the
carriages) and that does not seem to be a problem.
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 16th, 2013, 11:31 AM   #3940
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It depends. If trains run too slow for the line's superelevation, the rides become uncomfortable for passengers.
MEME ALERT!

No, superelevation is never so high that it would be dangerous or uncomfortable if the train were to slow down or even stop. Anything other than this would be complete idiocy on the part of the engineers.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
amtrak, desertxpress, fly california, high speed rail, northeast corridor, texas triangle, united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium