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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old March 11th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #4001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
But the most important lines in the US cited above simply do not have the same level of demand compare to China's 350km/h lines, such as Beijing-Tianjin and Shanghai-Nanjing. Right now in the US it's a matter of whether we can have it at all, speed can come later.
What is Washington-New York-Boston

Don't try to argue that there isn't much use of the service, because that's only due to the Acela being woefully inadequate.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 06:25 PM   #4002
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I think that it is better to develop aviation than railways in the USA. Really, sometimes to trevel by plane you need to pay practically the same as for train. And of course it is much faster to travel by plane. And that is why I think that there is no need to make 350 km/h railway in the USA.
I love aviation but I feel like our country needs to find alternative ways to move people around quickly without burning oil.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #4003
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I think that the biggest problem is very slow speed of HSR project in the USA. China built it's HSR in 6 years. So, Amtrak plans to build it by 2040( 27 years). Is it normally?!
Different countries have different priorities, just like US has ten aircraft carriers and China only has one, it's perfectly normal.

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What is Washington-New York-Boston

Don't try to argue that there isn't much use of the service, because that's only due to the Acela being woefully inadequate.
Oh yeah there are suppressed demand, but a 250km/h PDL will be so much more efficient than today's Acela, and IMO will meet that demand very well.
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Old March 11th, 2013, 07:19 PM   #4004
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There is relatively little difference in overall cost between a medium or high speed line, much of the expense is needed regardless - the potential journey time benefits however far outweigh the extra costs. This is the case with HS2 in the UK, which is being built with 400km/h in mind to future proof it, and i see no reason why the same argument wouldn't apply in the US where a straighter alignment would arguably be much easier.

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Old March 11th, 2013, 11:33 PM   #4005
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Quote:
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Oh yeah there are suppressed demand, but a 250km/h PDL will be so much more efficient than today's Acela, and IMO will meet that demand very well.


Essentially what he said. The majority of costs are in land acquisition, labour, etc. This makes the price difference proportionally not as great, hence it'd be prudent to build the best they've got.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 06:20 AM   #4006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I love aviation but I feel like our country needs to find alternative ways to move people around quickly without burning oil.
Physics don't help much. At ground level, to conceive any vehicle capable of travelling at 500mph ground speed will inevitably need very high energy input due to air displacement, no matter how efficient a propulsion system is (even, theoretically, if all other sources of attrition were reduced to zero but that of the air).

Even a state-of-the-art (of present times) full high-speed line spanning the 2600 miles between Los Angeles and New York would still take 15 hours on a theoretic non-stop train. Freaking 15 hours. Unacceptable.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 06:30 AM   #4007
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^ Nobody's going to take a train from NYC to LA. But the same high speed train going from NYC to places like Boston, DC, or Montreal, is very viable.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 07:17 AM   #4008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Physics don't help much. At ground level, to conceive any vehicle capable of travelling at 500mph ground speed will inevitably need very high energy input due to air displacement, no matter how efficient a propulsion system is (even, theoretically, if all other sources of attrition were reduced to zero but that of the air).

Even a state-of-the-art (of present times) full high-speed line spanning the 2600 miles between Los Angeles and New York would still take 15 hours on a theoretic non-stop train. Freaking 15 hours. Unacceptable.
Assuming a NY-LA service does take place, It will not be non-stop. To the least it will halt at around DC, Charlotte, Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix and some maybe medium size cities in between. Intermediate passengers will make up most of the traffic and only some leisure travellers will travel end-to-end. The trip time may be increased by about an hour or two to account for the intermediate stoppages. The service can still be viable. Additionally many trains will run only on part of the route and often these runs may overlap. A continouous route offers this versatility of use which may be absent when disconnected routes are planned.
Of course this point has been made before on this thread.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 07:25 AM   #4009
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I would love to see HSR from DC to Montreal in my lifetime.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 08:14 AM   #4010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Physics don't help much. At ground level, to conceive any vehicle capable of travelling at 500mph ground speed will inevitably need very high energy input due to air displacement, no matter how efficient a propulsion system is (even, theoretically, if all other sources of attrition were reduced to zero but that of the air).

Even a state-of-the-art (of present times) full high-speed line spanning the 2600 miles between Los Angeles and New York would still take 15 hours on a theoretic non-stop train. Freaking 15 hours. Unacceptable.
You are replying to something nobody is proposing.

HSR can and would be a very viable alternative to air travel in the US for certain routes/corridors. Nobody is talking about crossing the continent east to west.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 08:45 AM   #4011
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Sure it can be an option to compete with some short-haul flights, but even a Denver-Atlanta trip by a full HSR hypothetical alignment would still be non-competitive with air travel (like London-Rome trips are also non-competitive via trains.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 08:56 AM   #4012
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Noone is talking about Denver-Atlanta.

The North-East Corridor and California, those are places where HSR can supplement or compete with air travel.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #4013
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Yeah, NEC and California. Is pretty much 1) satisfying current demand, 2) siphoning air passengers onto rail 3) induced demand (drivers).




But when you consider that 3 of the 5 largest States are in the Southern half of the country and most of the fastest growing cities are outside the Northeast, I think the picture broadens.

As far as a national hub, almost no region is as important as the Great Lakes area.






For the rest of the country, it's less 1) and more of 2) and 3).
Doesn't need to be 380kph trains, but there are many other regions that could use it too. With city pairings that are close enough to be frequently used.





And then you have situations like these, not sure what to make of this: 4) seems there's excess capacity to be honest (or, rather, that not many people travel intra-regionally).


Essentially, I can get why people find a trans-continental HSR network outrageous, but a seamless one east of the Mississippi makes a lot of sense (and needs to happen).
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Old March 12th, 2013, 03:28 PM   #4014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Physics don't help much. At ground level, to conceive any vehicle capable of travelling at 500mph ground speed will inevitably need very high energy input due to air displacement, no matter how efficient a propulsion system is (even, theoretically, if all other sources of attrition were reduced to zero but that of the air).
Well, at short distances trains win for shorter preparatory, boarding and taxing times, and also rail terminals tends to be closer to residence and businesses (at average) so even at 300-350 km\h they can provide comparable overall travel time.

And then physics reminds us that airplane not just haul al the fuel along all the journey, they lift it. That's why airplane can only run high-density fuels, that are either fossil, which becoming more and more expensive both financially and energetically, or are potentially can be generated from grid (hydrogen, synthetic fuels), but at low efficiency (30% at best). While train can run directly from grid (from any power source - renewables, nuclear, etc.) with ~90% efficiency.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 06:04 PM   #4015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Physics don't help much. At ground level, to conceive any vehicle capable of travelling at 500mph ground speed will inevitably need very high energy input due to air displacement, no matter how efficient a propulsion system is (even, theoretically, if all other sources of attrition were reduced to zero but that of the air).

Even a state-of-the-art (of present times) full high-speed line spanning the 2600 miles between Los Angeles and New York would still take 15 hours on a theoretic non-stop train. Freaking 15 hours. Unacceptable.
Suburbanist, pls
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Old March 12th, 2013, 08:36 PM   #4016
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Suburbanist, pls
LOL!! We 'll see that again a few pages down the line
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Old March 12th, 2013, 08:54 PM   #4017
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Guys, he's not wrong. No one would choose a 15-hour train ride over a 5-hour flight from LA to NYC, unless it was a tourist train, i.e., as it is now. I certainly wouldn't, and I bet you wouldn't either.

What phoenixboi08 said is right; we could use a truly extensive HSR system east of the Mississippi, and one from LA to SF. Between those two areas (except the Texas Triangle), there just aren't enough people.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #4018
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Guys, he's not wrong. No one would choose a 15-hour train ride over a 5-hour flight from LA to NYC, unless it was a tourist train, i.e., as it is now. I certainly wouldn't, and I bet you wouldn't either.

What phoenixboi08 said is right; we could use a truly extensive HSR system east of the Mississippi, and one from LA to SF. Between those two areas (except the Texas Triangle), there just aren't enough people.
That wasn't the point.

No one was even discussing the fact. We reached agreement that transcontinental wasn't a great idea long ago.

It was more the fact that he dropped in and decided we needed to know why transcontinental HSR would fail.
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Old March 12th, 2013, 11:51 PM   #4019
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Earlier on this thread I said some regional high-speed systems make sense, such as Bay Area-Los Angeles, the Texas Triangle, the NEC (but in some 90% new ROW) and some hub system operating out of Chicago.

Maybe there is also a demand for HSR between Vancouver and Portland but I'm not entirely sure.

I don't question this at all.

What I question is the idea of extremely long routes beeing needed to provide HSR "to eveyrone"
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Old March 13th, 2013, 12:38 AM   #4020
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What I question is the idea of extremely long routes beeing needed to provide HSR "to eveyrone"

You questioned something that was only in your head. Noone here was talking about providing trans-continental HSR "to everyone".

Please, at least read the posts if you do insist on continuing to spout your tunnel-visioned ideology
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