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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 21st, 2013, 09:02 PM   #4121
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I read the legal fees bill for CAHSR is already on the US$ 105 million before works even begun.
No American large scale transit project will be free of legal fees and $105 million seems low to me. In the case of CAHSR, every neighborhood organization anywhere hear the tracks could be expected to sue to try to block it over noise and other issues. They build such costs into the budget for the project and they would happen no matter who is building it or with what technology.
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Old April 21st, 2013, 09:07 PM   #4122
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My point is: this idea of "handing the project over to the Chinese and get a Seattle-SAn Diego HSR for the price in 4 years" is silly.
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Old April 22nd, 2013, 10:43 PM   #4123
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I have to agree with the above statement, the Chinese model cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world, and that it's not completely immune from cost overruns and delays. For example the 684km 350kph Beijing-Shenyang HSR has been delayed for four years now because it couldn't pass environmental impact studies and objections from communities along its way.

It's also funny that we think Chinese HSR is cheap, it really isn't, a lot of the hidden cost were swallowed by local governments eager to attract the line that weren't shown in the final cost.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 02:16 AM   #4124
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Originally Posted by hmmwv View Post
I have to agree with the above statement, the Chinese model cannot be replicated anywhere else in the world, and that it's not completely immune from cost overruns and delays. For example the 684km 350kph Beijing-Shenyang HSR has been delayed for four years now because it couldn't pass environmental impact studies and objections from communities along its way.

It's also funny that we think Chinese HSR is cheap, it really isn't, a lot of the hidden cost were swallowed by local governments eager to attract the line that weren't shown in the final cost.
It's certainly not as cheap as people in the west tend to think, though I imagine on a per track km basis, it is still cheaper simply because of the scale. They could probably lower the cost a bit more if CR settled on a single type of rolling stock as well.
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Old April 23rd, 2013, 09:46 AM   #4125
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It's not the scale.
Material costs in China should not be substantially different from the rest of the world. But compared to the western world labour is still much cheaper (but rising fast).
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Old April 24th, 2013, 12:03 PM   #4126
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Old April 25th, 2013, 06:51 AM   #4127
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Nice to see that these will bring more high speed rail service to our country. Where will these run and will it make a significant impact over existing service? 125mph is a step in the right direction.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 07:51 AM   #4128
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I remember on a website called the Transport politic I predicted that the Florida High Speed rail project would be killed due to it taking to long to get out of the station. And I was right when the Governor slaughtered it like a cow. Now with the California High Speed project I made a comment that I'm predicating it to would be slaughtered. And the reasons are for this are that it's cost has tripled from when they said they would build it over the last two years which is giving me a high speed rail supporter out of control sticker shock. Another thing that is going to bring it down is that how political this sticker shock is making it a target for everyone to go after it. Along with that is how it has been able to eat up all the high speed rail funds in the county that could have gone to other better projects that had far better support of their states and coasted a whole lot less.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 09:12 AM   #4129
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post


Nice to see that these will bring more high speed rail service to our country. Where will these run and will it make a significant impact over existing service? 125mph is a step in the right direction.
135mph once a few things are sorted out...they are planning on adding more cars to service the Regional and Keystone lines and eventually the Empire , Knowledge Corridor , Cape Codder , Northwestern Service , Downstater Service and Lackawanna Corridor....which means another 70-100 locomotives will need to be ordered.
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Old April 25th, 2013, 11:56 AM   #4130
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The CAHSR project is hyper-political and perhaps overly ambitious in an age of diminished expectations. I am much more hopeful about private ventures- most notably the All Aboard Florida project. Though it is not true high speed rail, if successful, I think it will benefit other passenger rail projects in terms of public perception.

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A new, privately financed passenger rail service between Miami and Orlando is still on track, although the start up may be delayed about a year until the end of 2015.

The Federal Railroad Administration in January determined that adding trains on the Florida East Coast Railway tracks between West Palm Beach and Miami would have "no significant impact." An environmental impact study on the entire 235-mile route is now under way.

And although no state or local taxes will be used for the construction or operation, All Aboard Florida is applying for a federal loan to help pay for capital expenses such as track work or equipment.

"We anticipate starting construction on the rail infrastructure by the end of this year and being operational by the end of 2015," said Mike Reininger, president and chief development officer of the $1.5 billion All Aboard Florida project.

It's been a year since Florida East Coast Industries announced plans for the service, which would make four stops — Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando. The train, with gourmet meals and WiFi, will make 16 roundtrips a day, each about three hours. The FEC currently runs 10 freight trains a day between Miami and Jacksonville, and several more smaller, local freight trains.
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,7954045.story
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Old April 25th, 2013, 08:34 PM   #4131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Railroader View Post
I remember on a website called the Transport politic I predicted that the Florida High Speed rail project would be killed due to it taking to long to get out of the station. And I was right when the Governor slaughtered it like a cow. Now with the California High Speed project I made a comment that I'm predicating it to would be slaughtered. And the reasons are for this are that it's cost has tripled from when they said they would build it over the last two years which is giving me a high speed rail supporter out of control sticker shock. Another thing that is going to bring it down is that how political this sticker shock is making it a target for everyone to go after it. Along with that is how it has been able to eat up all the high speed rail funds in the county that could have gone to other better projects that had far better support of their states and coasted a whole lot less.
At this point it probably deserves to be killed...

I think Texas project has some promise. Private money, easy geography, the right length and in a potentially richest state in the country.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 02:30 AM   #4132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
The CAHSR project is hyper-political and perhaps overly ambitious in an age of diminished expectations. I am much more hopeful about private ventures- most notably the All Aboard Florida project. Though it is not true high speed rail, if successful, I think it will benefit other passenger rail projects in terms of public perception.



http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/bro...,7954045.story
thank god the private sector is working.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 03:40 AM   #4133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
At this point it probably deserves to be killed...

I think Texas project has some promise. Private money, easy geography, the right length and in a potentially richest state in the country.
I feel like I must be missing something; you're pretty consistently negative about the CAHSR project, where, from what I've read it's imperfect, sure, but definitely represents progress.

Do you know something I don't know?
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Old April 26th, 2013, 07:53 AM   #4134
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the only legitimate reason to oppose hsr in the us is the lack of regular rail, even that would be an improvement
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Old April 26th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #4135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I feel like I must be missing something; you're pretty consistently negative about the CAHSR project, where, from what I've read it's imperfect, sure, but definitely represents progress.

Do you know something I don't know?
Well it has been essentially just one gigantic ****-up with the CAHSR group screwing up in every possible way (constantly changing plans, poor decision-making, promising the impossible).

All they had to do was make a practical plan and stick to it. Changing decisions like that add massively to the costs of a project.

Essentially, the management are a bunch of incompetent tools.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #4136
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While that's all obviously bad for public opinion of the project, that doesn't (or shouldn't) really matter. As long as the project itself is actually good, then it's worth doing.
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Old April 26th, 2013, 05:17 PM   #4137
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Maybe they should rename the CAHSR project the National HSR Defense Network Pilot Project- you know, something kickass sounding and patriotic to appeal to the red meat eaters. Hey, it worked for the interstate system
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Old April 26th, 2013, 07:38 PM   #4138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I feel like I must be missing something; you're pretty consistently negative about the CAHSR project, where, from what I've read it's imperfect, sure, but definitely represents progress.

Do you know something I don't know?
No inside knowledge if that is what you are asking.

Normally I'm a big supporter of rail, including high speed, however I don't believe one should be built at any cost. California project's costs are spiralling out of control plus I think they are starting to build it from the wrong end. I fear there is a potential for this to be such an enormous white elephant that it will kill all other HSR rail project in the US for few more decades. Particularly if only the initial segments are built at huge cost and marginal utility...

Maybe it's better to start from the beginning and with something more modest. LA-San Diego at 140 mph perhaps?
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Old April 26th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #4139
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I'm struggling to see why that wasn't the starting point.

That makes sense, will be cheap and shows the communities involved the benefits of HSR

Damnit CAHSR, the wasted potential is astonishing
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Old April 27th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #4140
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I don't think that the costs have necessarily "spiraled out of control"; the initial cost was probably an intentional underestimate, and you had to know that various land acquisition and environmental planning costs (especially the latter in California) are unavoidable.

Also, I'm not so sure that an upgrade of that kind would be cheap, considering a lot of the trackage as it is, and the idea with making it a ~220mph system was so that it'd be a viable alternative to flying. If I remember correctly, the LA-SF air corridor is the 2nd busiest in the country (and among the busiest in the world)

As far as I know, there'll be ongoing improvements of both ends of the initial operating segment, such that there will be roughly continual improvements in travel time right up until the whole system is completed.

Like I said before, the project is far from perfect, but "far from perfect" just as aptly describes the transportation policies and situation of the entire country. That's why I'm plenty happy and surprised to see this project, imperfect as it is, happening/.
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