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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
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Old July 17th, 2013, 12:49 AM   #4221
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Even in Saudi Arabia their new HS line will use electric propulsion.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 01:08 AM   #4222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaking-2014 View Post
we have this diesel train in algeria the speed of this train can reach 200km/h



Are there tilting trains?
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Old July 17th, 2013, 01:19 AM   #4223
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Speeds in excess of 140 mph require serious power to be reached in an acceptable amount of time. Drag increases exponentially with speed.

An 8 car diesel powered 186 mph train would need something in the order of 8800 kW/12000 hp, which will probably be unfeasible because of the large engines; experiments with turbine driven trains haven't been that succesfull either (unreliable and unefficient). Electric is really the way to go when you want go fast.
Yes, gas-turbine train consume much more fuel than a diesel-electric one. Because this, Union Pacific shut down its GTEL locomotives in 1969 (replaced by GE U50C diesel-electric units) and Amtrak abandoned the Turboliners in 1981.

But, what about gas-turbine, high-speed Bombardier JetTrain? They are cheaper to operate than old GTEL/Turboliner? British railways study JetTrain as a substitute to 35 years-old InterCity 125 HST trainsets.

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Old July 17th, 2013, 03:33 AM   #4224
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Which is the fastest rail line in the US??
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Old July 17th, 2013, 04:28 AM   #4225
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Which is the fastest rail line in the US??
Fastest avg/highest top speed is Acela, on the Northeast Corridor I believe.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 08:20 AM   #4226
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Fastest avg/highest top speed is Acela, on the Northeast Corridor I believe.
150 mph max, a dismal 60-80 mph average
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Old July 17th, 2013, 08:37 AM   #4227
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Doesn't look good for XPressWest:

Quote:
WASHINGTON — The government has halted its review of a multibillion-dollar loan request for high-speed rail line connecting Las Vegas and Southern California, a potentially staggering hit to the ambitious project.

The development is a blow for XPressWest, which has envisioned itself having a major role in the region’s future. The company’s plans call for electric trains whisking passengers at speeds up to 150 mph between Las Vegas and, for starters, Victorville, Calif.

But two Republicans who have raised questions about the rail plan said they were told the Department of Transportation has decided to “indefinitely suspend its review of the XPressWest loan application.”
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/ne...gh-speed-train
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Old July 17th, 2013, 08:55 AM   #4228
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Originally Posted by Rodalvesdepaula View Post
Yes, gas-turbine train consume much more fuel than a diesel-electric one.
The real problem of turbines is twof-fold: Efficient turbines are slow to react to load changes and they are only efficient at the load you design them to be efficient at and get very unefficient at any other load.
In case of a HST it isn't uncommon that it travels just as much time (not distance!) on conventional lines as on high speed lines. When you optimise it for high speed (when you need most power) it will be inefficient at low speed and vice versa. The best setup is probably like DB Baureihe 210. They were diesel powered 2450hp Baureihe 218s but with an additional 1350hp turbine that was only used in high load situations.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #4229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The real problem of turbines is twof-fold: Efficient turbines are slow to react to load changes and they are only efficient at the load you design them to be efficient at and get very unefficient at any other load.
It would be interesting to look at the first french TGV design, before they
decided to go electric, to see how they tried to overcome that.

Also, it's not true to say that diesel high-speed is not practical. British HSTs
routinely reached 125 mph and now the voyager sets also reach that speed.
I don't remember how fast ran the french RTG sets - probably 160 km/h,
but they sure could have been adapted easily to 200 km/h running too.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 05:14 PM   #4230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
150 mph max, a dismal 60-80 mph average
...I was just answering a question.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #4231
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As I understand it 200-220 kmh (125-135mph) is the practical limit for diesel trains. It's not impossible to run then faster, but it would be very inefficient. So if you want something running at 300 kmh or above electric is your only option.
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Old July 17th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #4232
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The rejection of the loan to the project of the XPress West was related to the operator been unable to justify the waivers it wanted from Buy America provision. They wanted to use some trick to circumvent Buy America provisions.

Read here the copy of the official explanation by US Dept. of Transportation: http://www.scribd.com/doc/154207442/...-to-XpressWest
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Old July 17th, 2013, 11:21 PM   #4233
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I don't know of any > 15km tunnels that carry passenger trains with diesel-pulled consists in any developed country.
The 12.5 km Cascade tunnel in the USA is used by a few passenger trains. The Canadian Mount Macdonald tunnel at 14.7 km is longer but I don't know if it is used by passenger trains. But in both cases maybe no more than one or two a day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodalvesdepaula View Post
But, what about gas-turbine, high-speed Bombardier JetTrain? They are cheaper to operate than old GTEL/Turboliner? British railways study JetTrain as a substitute to 35 years-old InterCity 125 HST trainsets.
The UK is going to electrify many routes, the replacements of the IC 125 HSTs are likely to be bimodal trains (electric and diesel), not pure diesel trains.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #4234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
...I was just answering a question.
Lol, and I was just giving some numbers to go along with your answer.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 01:02 AM   #4235
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And ok, Fresno is a mid-size city, but Madera is a small city (only 56,000 inhab.).

I just don´t get it, I find it not reasonable, because if Oakland or LA can´t be reached by direct service, that just won´t be profitable enough (speaking in rail terms of profitability, of course) to calm down the nymbys, and that, even if it´s the first phase. I agree with you that the first phase should have been LA to Bakersfield, that would have had a real impact.
They only had $8 billion to work with and they had a time limit to spend it. After that Republicans would take over the House and cut off all money to rail projects.

The lowest estimated cost for the Bakersfield to LA segment I've seen is $12 billion. More realistically though it will likely be in the $15 billion range. And the complex engineering work had hardly even begun for this segment when they got the money from the Feds.

So there was not enough time to design that segment before the money would go away nor was there nearly enough money to complete it.

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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
But Los Angeles railway station does exist. Where do trains go from there?
Very few intercity trains leave that station. Most trains that leave that station never travel outside of the urban area as commuter trains.

To understand why you need to understand that the long distance lines in California were designed to haul freight, not people, they are currently owned by freight companies that want nothing to do with passenger trains on their tracks. The current HSR plan is to link two of the few actual government owned rail lines in the state which means they will be able to electrify them and run passenger trains on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
I have a question for the CHSRA though: why don't the authorities build the system on viaducts to make land acquisition easier and install sound walls? The only "land acquisition" they would need would be the cross-section area of the support pylons.
Cost mostly. A basic two track viaduct in California is around $1-2 million per hundred feet of length excluding costs of piers or bents which average around $500,000 each assuming standard 8 meter height. So figure on $130 million a mile to build it assuming optimal building conditions. So you'd be looking at roughly $40 billion to get the HSR just through the mostly flat central valley. And that is extrapolating minimum prices out for the entire thing. There are, in fact, numerous areas where viaducts would be much trickier to build.

And that ignores that you do have to purchase the land the viaduct runs over. In fact many farm owners will try to require you to purchase their entire property even if the viaduct runs over only a bit of it through a process called reverse condemnation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
It depends on property law but I believe CHSRA would still need to sign a lease contract with the land owners to utilize the air above any private property.
In California they have to outright buy it.

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Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
There is also a lot of opposition to the concept of viaducts in general- that they are a blight on the scenery (if you consider the scenery in the central valley beautiful). You often see "reassuring" descriptions of the ROW being "mainly at grade with minimal elevated portions over highways and other obstacles". Of course, operationally viaducts are superior for hsr operation as they ensure a relatively flat grade profile and adjacent land owners can pass under the ROW easily, rather than having to depend on a finite number of tunnels/culverts that bore under grade level ROW or berm fill ROW (likewise with bridges).
Yeah, but the cost alone would make it a dead on arrival idea. With one of the two major parties opposed to spending any money on rail while maybe spending a pittance on roads the idea of long viaducts is a pipe dream.
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Old July 18th, 2013, 08:46 AM   #4236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
the replacements of the IC 125 HSTs are likely to be bimodal trains (electric and diesel), not pure diesel trains.
I have never understood why they haven't done more experimenting with dual mode train in the US anyways. On flat track diesels will do fine, on slopes switch to electric mode so can climb faster or recuperate brake power that is otherwise wasted.

The traction system of diesel electric locomotives used to be much simpler then an electric locomotive, but with modern AC systems the only major difference seems to be the power source.

On the other hand: I would be very interested to see a HST with a 30ton axle load, where the rest of the world sticks to a 18ton limit...
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Old July 18th, 2013, 09:59 AM   #4237
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It's pointless, on higher speeds each extra tonne cost a good deal of kWh, per each km and km\h.
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Old July 19th, 2013, 12:19 AM   #4238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
It would be interesting to look at the first french TGV design, before they
decided to go electric, to see how they tried to overcome that.

Also, it's not true to say that diesel high-speed is not practical. British HSTs
routinely reached 125 mph and now the voyager sets also reach that speed.
I don't remember how fast ran the french RTG sets - probably 160 km/h,
but they sure could have been adapted easily to 200 km/h running too.
So is the ICE TD.
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Old July 19th, 2013, 09:30 AM   #4239
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Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
On the other hand: I would be very interested to see a HST with a 30ton axle load, where the rest of the world sticks to a 18ton limit...
You're never going to see something built that heavy designed to go faster than 125 mph (200 km/h). The damage it would do to track integrity running at speeds above that would be unacceptably high. There's a reason HSTs are designed to have as low an axle load as possible.
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Old July 19th, 2013, 01:56 PM   #4240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
The damage it would do to track integrity running at speeds above that would be unacceptably high. There's a reason HSTs are designed to have as low an axle load as possible.
And the entire world except for NA seems to understand that. Personally I consider it madness that for instance the ALP45DP is allowed 200 km/h with its 32.5t axle load. And the most baffling is that new passenger locomotives in NA only seem to get heavier! A good exception are the electrics used on the NEC. You could consider the new ACS-64 a lightweight at 'only' 98t, which is still 10t more than the Vectron it was based on.
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