daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 19th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #4241
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,811
Likes (Received): 452

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
And the entire world except for NA seems to understand that. Personally I consider it madness that for instance the ALP45DP is allowed 200 km/h with its 32.5t axle load. And the most baffling is that new passenger locomotives in NA only seem to get heavier! A good exception are the electrics used on the NEC. You could consider the new ACS-64 a lightweight at 'only' 98t, which is still 10t more than the Vectron it was based on.
Agree with the above statement as well as Fan Railer. But, we will probably see something like the OP's overweight HST in the form of All Aboard Florida's trainset, which will have a diesel locomotive at each end. Not the ideal arrangement, but given the FRA, the best one can hope for, perhaps.
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 19th, 2013, 09:01 PM   #4242
desertpunk
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
 
desertpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ELP ~ ABQ
Posts: 55,643
Likes (Received): 53462

Why Feds Put a Halt on the Vegas Bullet Train Plan

Buy-America Snag Stalls Vegas High-Speed Rail



Quote:
Thursday, July 18, 2013

Many thought it was spending-averse Republicans like former-vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan that sunk the $5.5-billion loan application for XpressWest, the proposed high-speed rail train from Vegas to Victorville, California. But it also had something to do with XpressWest's plan to build and buy trains from outside the US. Buy-America is a program of the US Department of Transportation that stipulates that DOT loan recipients "purchase steel, iron and other manufactured goods produced in the United States for their projects." XpressWest was working with a Canadian company on purchasing rail cars, a move defended by the president of the US High Speed Rail Association, who said there simply aren't American companies making bullet trains (as you may know, the nation's first HSR is supposed to start work soon in California). Nevada senator and senate majority leader Harry Reid admitted the White House is worried about XpressWest obtaining the remaining $1.5-billion in private financing needed to get the train running, but said the loan application can be revived if it's amended with a new financing and purchasing plan.
__________________
We are floating in space...

FM 2258 liked this post
desertpunk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2013, 10:18 PM   #4243
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,035
Likes (Received): 8709

How retarded is that? Let's build a HSR line. Nope, only if you buy american. There's no HSR industry here. Why? Because there is no HSR.
__________________
Europa per gli europei

SAS 16, fskobic liked this post
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #4244
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17034

Why would they even need a loan if it were a private project? The Japanese Project is completely private...so is the FEC.
__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 19th, 2013, 10:35 PM   #4245
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,529
Likes (Received): 21236

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
Why would they even need a loan if it were a private project? The Japanese Project is completely private...so is the FEC.
The Japanese government finances rail development extensively with loans and/or loan guarantees and/or channeled loans for banks.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Silly_Walks liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 12:33 AM   #4246
FM 2258
Registered User
 
FM 2258's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Austin
Posts: 5,438
Likes (Received): 612

Oh man, this is one of the most frustrating threads to read on the entire forum.

Green light, red light, green light, red light. Seems like how all high speed rail projects in the country are going.

I'm curious though, what's going on with the Amtrak Cities Sprinter. It seems like that's the only new high speed rail progress being made recently. Will those run at 125mph for most of their journeys?
FM 2258 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 03:41 AM   #4247
k.k.jetcar
Registered User
 
k.k.jetcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sapporo
Posts: 1,811
Likes (Received): 452

Quote:
Why would they even need a loan if it were a private project? The Japanese Project is completely private...so is the FEC.
It's a private project but it's asking for a $5.5 billion loan from the RRIF, which is unprecedented. The AAF project is also seeking a loan (maybe it was already granted), but it was for a much smaller amount, little different than what the freight railroads regulary receive from the federal govt. The Texas Central Railway Project backed by JR Central is completely privately financed, and will not receive any public loans period. Thus it will be free from any political or bureaucratic meddling, and can buy any rolling stock it wants, which in this case will most certainly be JR Central's N700i design (or its successor).
k.k.jetcar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 05:07 AM   #4248
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153

Buy America is just utterly stupid and protectonist to the extreme.

"Hey, let's build a project that will benefit the public greatly, and let's also do it at good value by buying from competitive manufacturers around the world"

"NO, F--- THAT. AMERICAN ONLY. WE NEED A FREEDOM TRAIN, NOT SOME COMMIETRAIN. WE'RE NOT GONNA HELP YOU BUY COMMIE CRAP"

Well now the project has been made too expensive, it's not happening at all.

clap

clap

clap
__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.

FM 2258, Silver Swordsman, fskobic liked this post
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 05:09 AM   #4249
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,529
Likes (Received): 21236

If trains were manufactured in North Korea, Iran or especially Cuba, then they might have had a good case for boycotting. Not hte case, of course.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 05:34 AM   #4250
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3706

It's surprising how a country that promotes neo-liberal capitalism and corporatism wouldn't allow it's national passenger rail company to buy foreign trains.
__________________

SAS 16 liked this post
LtBk está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #4251
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

I don't think the point is to restrict foreign technology, but to incentivize investment...

Unfortunately, policy outcomes aren't always predictable.

This kind of thing is not all that unusual...if I remember correctly, CAHSR and Amtrak are buying foreign rolling stock. I think it's about where the production takes place?
__________________
MCRP '16
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 06:00 AM   #4252
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,529
Likes (Received): 21236

You are correct. Buy America is based on place of manufacturing, not the HQ location of the manufcaturer.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 06:46 AM   #4253
Fan Railer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 658
Likes (Received): 566

Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I'm curious though, what's going on with the Amtrak Cities Sprinter. It seems like that's the only new high speed rail progress being made recently. Will those run at 125mph for most of their journeys?
They're still testing 600 and 601 down at Pueblo. Once that is complete, the engine will be FRA certified and cleared to begin NEC testing.

Yes, there are a good deal of 125 mph stretches along the NEC for those locomotives to run at their top speed.

As for their weight, I actually think that they have a decent balance of being both moderately light, and maintaining ample adhesive weight for tractive effort to accelerate the long consists they're rated for. You can't have a locomotive be too light, or else you're dealing with lots of wheel slippage which leads to higher maintenance costs (flat wheels).
As for EMU HSTs, they are expected to have a much lower axle load rating since their adhesive weight is spread out across the trainset, as opposed to being centered in one or two locomotives. This is why the Acelas are comparatively heavy; they are locomotive based trainsets and not distributed power trainsets. Any future Acela replacement is planned to be an EMU design, and judging by Amtrak's current relationship with Siemens, (and sour taste with Bombardier), I am placing my bets on a Velaro type train replacing the current Acela units. Axle load on that type of trainset is around 14-17 tons.
__________________

FM 2258 liked this post

Last edited by Fan Railer; July 20th, 2013 at 06:54 AM.
Fan Railer no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 06:52 PM   #4254
Rodalvesdepaula
Scooter/motorbike lover
 
Rodalvesdepaula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sorocaba (SP), Brazil
Posts: 49,461
Likes (Received): 40752

Following the Detroit City bankruptcy, I believe US DOT could start some studies of a high-speed, Pendolino-style train project between Chicago and Detroit along Michigan State, with stops in Michigan City, Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor, a "Tilting Wolverine".

With a HST serving Detroit, the city can be a housing option for Chicago commuters because a trip in a Pendolino tilting train could take two hours or less. More people living in Detroit increases the flow of money in the city and brings new life, giving a new image to the metropolis.
__________________
Rodalvesdepaula no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 08:24 PM   #4255
SAS 16
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Madrid Spain European Union
Posts: 283
Likes (Received): 160

Quote:
Following the Detroit City bankruptcy, I believe US DOT could start some studies of a high-speed, Pendolino-style train project between Chicago and Detroit along Michigan State, with stops in Michigan City, Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor, a "Tilting Wolverine".

With a HST serving Detroit, the city can be a housing option for Chicago commuters because a trip in a Pendolino tilting train could take two hours or less. More people living in Detroit increases the flow of money in the city and brings new life, giving a new image to the metropolis.
It is a good idea however its has not an immediate effect, in spain valladolid madrid 1h or segovia and toledo madrid( 30 mins) are starting to be commuter areas, however it has taken up to 6 7 years after opening of the line (not in toledo case)
__________________

Rodalvesdepaula liked this post
SAS 16 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2013, 09:24 PM   #4256
Rodalvesdepaula
Scooter/motorbike lover
 
Rodalvesdepaula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sorocaba (SP), Brazil
Posts: 49,461
Likes (Received): 40752

It's true. But, Amtrak has part of Chicago-Detroit Line, called Michigan Line, a single-track railroad with 158 Km between Kalamazoo and Michigan City. In 2011, Michigan State tried to negociate the purchase of the rest between Kalamazoo and Detroit for a high-speed train project and I don't know if negotiations were successful...


http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...ed-Amtrak.html

Amtrak Michigan Line is prepared to operate up to 180 Km/h. On the other hand, Pendolino tilting trains can run at a speed 30% higher than unmodified on the track curve layout. Let's take a example with a 600-metre radius curve: a ordinary train can run on this curve at top speed of 110 Km/h and a tilting train can run the same curve at top speed of 145 Km/h.

Considering that Michigan topography is flat and don't have any hill, isn't difficult to build a second-track on Amtrak Michigan Line and extende the railroad to Detroit in a all-new line, no need to buy the Norfolk Southern Michigan Line.

The "Tilting Wolverine" could have the following characteristics:

1. Five stations: Chicago Union (or LaSalle), Michigan City, Kalamazoo, Ann Arbor (new station) and Detroit (former Central Michigan Station)

2. Operating speed at 180-220 Km/h

3. Fully electrified line with 25 kV/50 Hz AC system

4. Twelve daily round-trips

5. Pendolino-style tilting trains, with possibility of using some Acela Express units when Amtrak buy new trains for NEC

6. Conversion of the Detroit - Pontiac stretch for commuter train Detroit - Flint

7. End of Pere Marquette and Blue Water trains, replace for intercity buses (Greyhound, Indian Trails, Megabus...) to Chicago or Kalamazoo (conection to "Tilting Wolverine").
__________________

Last edited by Rodalvesdepaula; July 20th, 2013 at 09:59 PM.
Rodalvesdepaula no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2013, 02:16 AM   #4257
phoenixboi08
Registered User
 
phoenixboi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,550
Likes (Received): 798

Do we have any unified bodies to press for interests?
Seems like we must rely on State Transportation Departments and the DoT - and other private/public partners.

I wish we could all sit down, draw up and agree on a basic network. And then go about it piece by piece with everyone knowing (acknowledging) what the ultimate system will be/look like.
__________________

Rodalvesdepaula liked this post
phoenixboi08 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2013, 03:04 AM   #4258
Rodalvesdepaula
Scooter/motorbike lover
 
Rodalvesdepaula's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Sorocaba (SP), Brazil
Posts: 49,461
Likes (Received): 40752

And USA can have two types of High-Speed Railroad:

- TGV-style, fully High-Speed Line: with dedicated tracks, speed up to 300~350 Km/h, 8~12 cars trainsets, high-frequency schedule. Axles: Washington D.C./Boston, San Diego/San Francisco, Miami/Orlando, Oklahoma City/Dallas/Houston, Cincinnati/Chicago/Minneapolis, Los Angeles/Las Vegas

- Acela-style High-Speed trains: in tracks shared with freight trains, since the traffic isn't very high, with regional lines. Top speed up to 220 Km/h, electric 8-cars tilting trains, same stations from actual Amtrak system. Axles: Chicago/Detroit/Cleveland, Chicago/St. Louis, Eugene/Vancouver, New York (Grand Central)/Niagara Falls, Chicago/Topeka, Chicago/Omaha, Orlando/Atlanta/Raleigh, Denver/Salt Lake City, Philadelphia/Cleveland

The "Amtrak higher-speed railroad" is efficient only to improve speed on long-distance passenger trains as California Zephyr, AutoTrain and Empire Builder. For regional lines, It isn't very smart to use diesel locomotives and old Amfleet cars...
__________________

Last edited by Rodalvesdepaula; July 21st, 2013 at 03:09 AM.
Rodalvesdepaula no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2013, 03:40 AM   #4259
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,529
Likes (Received): 21236

Denver/Salt Lake City is impracticable. Take a look at both major rail lines around there. The Colorado line goes meandering several valleys, it cannot sustain higher speed traffic not even with improvements. The UP mainline via Wyoming is chocked with freight trains, as rather long, and it doesn't serve much intermediate locations.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!

Rodalvesdepaula liked this post
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2013, 08:54 AM   #4260
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodalvesdepaula View Post
And USA can have two types of High-Speed Railroad:

- TGV-style, fully High-Speed Line
- Acela-style High-Speed trains: in tracks shared with freight trains
The only HSL-only HSLs are the full-size Shinkansens and the THSR. All other HSL use shared tracks.
In Germany it is even normal for the high speed tracks to be used by freight trains as well (except for one line which is to steep). However this would be a problem in NA because the high axle loads aren't helpful when it comes to maintaining tight track alignment.

It also depends on the catenary height they will choose for the high speed lines. In Europe it ranges between 5.5m and 6.5m over the rail head, however if I read correct 7.2m is used on most the NEC. 7.2m would allow for 6.15m dual stacks. Using 25 kV 60 Hz should be a no brainer.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.

Rodalvesdepaula liked this post
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
amtrak, desertxpress, fly california, high speed rail, northeast corridor, texas triangle, united states

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium