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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 21st, 2013, 06:12 PM   #4361
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Alright, could one of you guys saying the California project is a huge mess PLEASE clarify? Because, as far as I can tell, with the exception of compromised services on the SF peninsula, what is wrong with it??
"Problems" with California HSR (with explanations as to why it's not as messed up as most think)

- Blended approach (shared tracks with commuter rail) on Peninsula and LA sections to cut costs on right of way. Given that the "promise" of HSR is SF-LA in 2hrs40m, skeptics say that the Blended plan cannot deliver on this promise.
+ Blended approach does not mean HSR trains will run on commuter tracks--it means the opposite; that commuter trains will run on HSR tracks! Experts have calculated that train speeds on the Peninsula sections can still reach 125-150mph; while not the 220mph of true HSR, it is still possible to attain 2hrs40min due to the fact that the time saved between 220mph and 150mph is quite marginal.

- Funding shortfall. Estimated costs are between $68-98bn. Current identifiable funding is around $7-10 billion. The initial operating segment in the Central Valley is supposed to cost around $32bn. Critics are afraid that if no further funds are identified (with Congress locked on new spending projects), California will be stuck with a stretch of unusable railway.
+ While this is a legitimate concern, many experts have advocated different funding plans from different sources to help fund HSR, such as new taxes from fracking and cap-trade programs.

- Need. When people see California suffering from poor education and overworked public services, many question the necessity of investing so much in something that will not see use until much, much later.
+ Long-term investments should not be compared to short-term investments; California is projected to have explosive population growth in the next 20 years, which means "doing nothing" is not an alternative; either expand the freeways and airports (at much more expensive prices), or suffer crippling gridlock that is already costing Americans literally billions of dollars per year.

- NIMBYs. CHSR is getting sued to pieces by raging farmers who even went as far to compare CHSRA to the Nazis.
+ Not worthy of discussion, especially when most NIMBYs in question have never even seen an HSR before. Not to mention that even Kings County's extreme "Eat Sh*t and Die, HSR fanboys" comes nowhere close to the opposition to successful HSR construction in Europe (recent protests over Italy-France HSR have been so violent that the military had to get involved to keep the construction site safe).

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Old November 21st, 2013, 06:28 PM   #4362
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Colorado evaluating $ 9.6 billion high-speed line between Fort Collins and Colorado Springs

Another state evaluating HSR projects

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A proposed high-speed rail system from Fort Collins to DIA and then south to Colorado Springs would cost about $9.8 billion and carry roughly 13 million passengers a year, according to planners Tuesday night.

That scenario is the most favored among those being considered as part of a overall push to connect the Front Range and Interstate 70 west to Eagle County with some form of high-speed rail.

Planners told those who attended an unveiling of the plans being considered by the Colorado Department of Transportation that no one plan has been formally selected.

In fact, the costs of such system might require it to be built in stages and would depend on funding from the federal government and local governments.

"This will cost of tens of millions of dollars just to complete the environmental studies," said David Krutsinger, of CDOT's division of transit and rail.

He said an alternative mode of travel will be needed in Colorado as the population is expected to increase from 5 million to 8 million by 2035.

Planners said any rail corridor would have to avoid cutting through the city of Denver to scale back costs. Still, a 340-mile system that would go from Fort Collins south to DIA and south to Pueblo and include I-70 to Eagle would cost over $30 billion.

Which is why CDOT planners say phasing the project makes sense. The preferred 132-mile route from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs omits, for the time being, the I-70 west portion.

Five other options ó including one that includes the mountain corridor at a cost of $17 billion ó were also presented Tuesday night.

The opinions of potential commuters may alter the planning, however, said Krutsinger. "Really, it's down to how much do you want to speed," he told the audience.

A draft report of CDOT's recommendations will be released in December.

Read more: High-speed rail from Fort Collins to Springs would cost $9.8 billion - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...#ixzz2lIYNA4Nb
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 01:15 AM   #4363
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No.

Construction on the California line is supposed to start soon, but the project has been so mismanaged and is a huge boondoggle. Hopefully it gets scrapped before tens of billions of taxpayer dollars go down the toilet.
I see why you are the spam king
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 01:55 AM   #4364
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I wouldn't say scrapped, but I'd definitely have the current management forcefully ejected.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 05:23 AM   #4365
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@Silver Swordsman

Those are mostly problems which affect almost any large infrastructure project across the entire country. Why they should make the CAHSR project bad, in particular, I'm still lost on.

I know that the 2h 40m time thing was part of the legislation voted on to begin looking at the potential for the HSR project in the first place, but (1) as you say, it will likely occur even with a blended approach, and (2) it'd be beyond stupid to abort a multi-billion-dollar project just because of a few minutes, given the alternative of ever-increasing road and air congestion.

The only objection I really get is the one wondering about what else the money could be spent on. But that's not an argument against the project; that's an argument for increased government spending and taxation.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 04:35 PM   #4366
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So weird seeing rich country like US spend trillion on their military, yet struggling on upgrade their infrastructure on a lot smaller budget.
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Old November 22nd, 2013, 09:05 PM   #4367
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non-sequitur, that assumes that spending less on something else automatically translates into spending more on another thing.

The fact of the matter is that enough people, in positions of prominence, think it's not necessary to fund these things and enough of their constituents agree. EVERY infrastructure development in the world is financed. Period. Has nothing to do with "spending," it's a commitment issue.

For a local example, just look at all the ruckus surrounding HS2...
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:40 AM   #4368
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Yeah, I really don't know what the issue is with us Anglo countries not being able to get it together on our infrastructure.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 06:19 AM   #4369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
And furthermore, let's be real: the obstacle to this isn't financing, it's local opposition. Think about all the land they'd need to put in such a large piece of infrastructure...
Significantly less right of way than airports or freeways. also, to increase capacity, you add more cars...no need to add wider lanes or build more runways and terminals.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:22 PM   #4370
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Honestly, I think we need to find more companies who could support high speed rail, and have them lobby for it, to counter all of this anti-hsr crap. Also, enough of this "it will destroy communities crap. highways did it, and made the situation MUCH worse. Clearly, why must we give so much leeway for a highway, but none for a high speed rail, which I think will be about 10 times better than any highway in the 21st century.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:25 PM   #4371
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Significantly less right of way than airports or freeways. also, to increase capacity, you add more cars...no need to add wider lanes or build more runways and terminals.
No, you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying it's actually that much more difficult (highways consume far more land, of course), but rather that many people just seem to be far more against rail infrastructure.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:35 PM   #4372
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No, you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying it's actually that much more difficult (highways consume far more land, of course), but rather that many people just seem to be far more against rail infrastructure.
Honestly, I think most people are xenophobic of high speed rail, but honestly, If wee can pull HSR off in California, I think people will realize how great it can be for America.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 04:37 PM   #4373
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Honestly, I think most people are xenophobic of high speed rail, but honestly, If wee can pull HSR off in California, I think people will realize how great it can be for America.
Like pulling teeth
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 05:02 PM   #4374
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The more apt metaphor is probably something like getting used to wearing dentures.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 10:00 PM   #4375
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Honestly, I think most people are xenophobic of high speed rail, but honestly, If wee can pull HSR off in California, I think people will realize how great it can be for America.
If we the government and the taxpayers out of this, it would be better, thank god rick scott killed the taxpayer HSR in my state for good reason, we cannot afford it.
thank god a private enterprise like All aboard florida and FEC has taken it's place and it's a free market.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 10:01 PM   #4376
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No, you're misunderstanding my point. I'm not saying it's actually that much more difficult (highways consume far more land, of course), but rather that many people just seem to be far more against rail infrastructure.
Because they are against paying for it, it's our money they are using and we are not paying for it.
we should stop spending period.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 11:18 PM   #4377
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we should stop spending period.
No more roads? No more street lights?
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Old November 24th, 2013, 02:41 AM   #4378
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DFTT! This one's a bad one, too.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 06:05 AM   #4379
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Because they are against paying for it, it's our money they are using and we are not paying for it.
we should stop spending period.
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Old November 24th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #4380
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
Because they are against paying for it, it's our money they are using and we are not paying for it.
we should stop spending period.
I feel if the government is going to "waste" money on something, it should be something that will help communities get around more efficiently. High speed rail will benefit everyone, it will get more people off the roads, less people in the airport and it's much safer than driving.

Our government wastes so much money flying military planes around for useless exercises and it's my tax money. I'd rather see it go to HSR for everyone rather than burning oil for no good reason.

Highways are being expanded all over the country yet we cannot use the concrete to build rail? I find it pathetic since the right of way for rail is much less than expanding a highway.
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