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View Poll Results: Should the US build or improve it's HSR network?
Yes 249 89.57%
No 29 10.43%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 27th, 2013, 08:22 AM   #4401
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Originally Posted by ryaboisse View Post
I hate to be off topic on my first post on these forums, but do any of you know of any schools with comparable Railroad engineering programs other then the Univ. of Illinois Urbana-Champaign? I want to work on projects across america and maybe a little abroad as well. I love there program, but it's just the location of the campus, coupled with other things. (I live in the Northeast by the way). Anyway, have been spectating these forums for a while and are glad to finally join in! Hope you guys can help or point to a forum where this question should be asked.
Univ. of Ill. is probably the best you can get in N. America. If you want to work abroad, especially in passenger rail, better to go to a program in Europe, as learning N. American practices will pretty much lock you in to systems that follow American heavy freight/low maintenance operating principles (some parts of Australia, some developing countries with lines hauling mineral traffic etc.).
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Old November 27th, 2013, 09:09 AM   #4402
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
that will happen if we get the government out of the way, HSR will lose money just like amtrak did all this time.
You do realize, that freeways and airports lose a lot more money than Amtrak does, right?

Budget appropriations for the Interstate system for maintenance alone in FY2012 was somewhere around $30bn. In comparison, that is around the total amount of money that Amtrak has received in its entire 40-year lifetime. Those are your taxpayer dollars, too, and I don't hear you complaining about your money being used to fix roads.

The problem is, the free market's track record for innovation is pretty abysmal. Yes, there are entrepreneurs such as Elon Musk and Bill Gates, but those are the minority. Capitalism is the system of the elite, designed by the elite, for the elite, to maintain the status quo. It is for this reason that the American medical establishment is lobbying against nanotechnology, because it is cheaper and safer; it is also for reason why Southwest Airlines and oil companies are declaring war on HSR.

The government, on the other hand, has no fiscal obligations--its sole responsibility is to protect and improve the welfare of its citizenry. While people might disagree how the government should help, it is still responsible for a lot of things you and I take for granted. Were it not for the government, there will be no postal service, and with that, the need for good roads or railways, with that, there would be no transcontinental railroad, or any other social infrastructure, such as hospitals, public schools and libraries, and Social Security.

You want to "go back to the Founding Fathers?" Go back to the time of stagecoaches, no electricity or running water, and rampant slavery.

No freeways and airports for you.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 12:33 PM   #4403
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Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
Budget appropriations for the Interstate system for maintenance alone in FY2012 was somewhere around $30bn. In comparison, that is around the total amount of money that Amtrak has received in its entire 40-year lifetime. Those are your taxpayer dollars, too, and I don't hear you complaining about your money being used to fix roads.
So Amtrak receives just 2.5% of the amount allocated for the Interstates, so the question if the Interstates transport more or less then 40 times the passenger amounts of Amtrak is warranted. Without any proof I would guess more.

The railways suffers from a chicken and the egg situation: The number of services is limited because of the limited number of passengers, but you will not atract more passengers when you do not improve the number of services. And that's before travel speed and time come into the picture.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 12:47 PM   #4404
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Knowing that, you should know better than to respond to them.
I see no reason not to. People like this serve as simple amusement in an otherwise boring internet landscape, so why not take advantage of it to poke a little fun? But I digress.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #4405
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Originally Posted by Fan Railer View Post
I see no reason not to. People like this serve as simple amusement in an otherwise boring internet landscape, so why not take advantage of it to poke a little fun? But I digress.
I don't know about you, but I find it difficult to engage misinformation without ensuring that it's corrected, and having engaged that particular source of misinformation (skyscraperhighrise) previously, I know that nothing will change it. Maybe you're different, but I find it immensely frustrating.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #4406
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I don't know about you, but I find it difficult to engage misinformation without ensuring that it's corrected, and having engaged that particular source of misinformation (skyscraperhighrise) previously, I know that nothing will change it. Maybe you're different, but I find it immensely frustrating.
The "ignore list" feature does wonders for my sanity...
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Old November 27th, 2013, 06:23 PM   #4407
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Not Good @ all

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/C...ks-5011046.php
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High speed rail=real energy independence!

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Old November 27th, 2013, 07:57 PM   #4408
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Hearing "It may prove fatal" in regards to this project from the Howard Jarvis people is pointless; it's only what they've been hoping for years.

I'm beginning to see where the biggest faults are in the CAHSR project: tying together all of these requirements (specified travel times, completion dates, and funding requirements) makes it much more difficult to get this thing going in the first place. Once there's a portion of it running, a lot of doubt will disappear, but if it never runs in the first place, all the criticism is just self-fulfilling prophecy. So sad.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 07:59 PM   #4409
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Old November 27th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #4410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High-speed rail funding takes a big hit from Sacramento judge
Source: The Fresno Bee

Kenny's rulings, however, do not bar the state from selling the bonds. Nor did he order the rail authority to rescind its approval of contracts for work on the first 29-mile construction stretch from northeast Madera to the south edge of Fresno or block the state from spending federal stimulus or transportation money on the project.
What I gather from these two rulings are that 1) they can't currently use the bonds appropriated for the project under Prop 1A and 2) before they are able to, they'll first need to "certify completion of all of the environmental clearances needed for its 'initial operating segment'". Though, the caveat here is that... "the judge did not invalidate the bonds, he did not invalidate any of the contracts, and he refused to approve a restraining order against the project" (Rod Diridon Sr.).

Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/2013/11/25/...#storylink=cpy

By all effects, I'm still struggling to see how this ruling itself does anything to "cancel" the project. Really, what the implication is is that they won't be able to make use of the Federal funds as it requires matching funds from the State, which the authority can't access at the moment under the current ruling.

This will be interesting to watch going forward.
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Old November 27th, 2013, 09:43 PM   #4411
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Honestly, If anything, I hope they go back to the original plan, also the good news is that the judge ruled against calls to halt building it at all.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 02:58 AM   #4412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
Nope, real prices (e.g. inflation corrected) of gasoline are growing too. And should it bee fault of federal reserve only, oil priced should grow remarkably faster in USD than in other currencies, but that isn't happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cr...since_1861.png

What is actually happening - we are moving from cheap (energetically, and thus financially) to expensive one. That's it. There is no magical button to make liquid fuels cheap as back in late 80s.

Because the federal reserve really controls everything, it controls the borrowing and spending, making money out of nothing.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 03:00 AM   #4413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Swordsman View Post
You do realize, that freeways and airports lose a lot more money than Amtrak does, right?

Budget appropriations for the Interstate system for maintenance alone in FY2012 was somewhere around $30bn. In comparison, that is around the total amount of money that Amtrak has received in its entire 40-year lifetime. Those are your taxpayer dollars, too, and I don't hear you complaining about your money being used to fix roads.

The problem is, the free market's track record for innovation is pretty abysmal. Yes, there are entrepreneurs such as Elon Musk and Bill Gates, but those are the minority. Capitalism is the system of the elite, designed by the elite, for the elite, to maintain the status quo. It is for this reason that the American medical establishment is lobbying against nanotechnology, because it is cheaper and safer; it is also for reason why Southwest Airlines and oil companies are declaring war on HSR.

The government, on the other hand, has no fiscal obligations--its sole responsibility is to protect and improve the welfare of its citizenry. While people might disagree how the government should help, it is still responsible for a lot of things you and I take for granted. Were it not for the government, there will be no postal service, and with that, the need for good roads or railways, with that, there would be no transcontinental railroad, or any other social infrastructure, such as hospitals, public schools and libraries, and Social Security.

You want to "go back to the Founding Fathers?" Go back to the time of stagecoaches, no electricity or running water, and rampant slavery.

No freeways and airports for you.
Read the u.s. constitution period and let the free market decide, get the government out of the way, i'm tired of big government, especially from the left and the RINO's.
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Left/Right it doesn't matter anymore, you still get bigger government, no matter who's in power.

Democrips and rebloodlicans aka democrats and republicans, two wings of the same bird of prey

thankfully i'm a libertarian constitutionalist.

#standwithrand

R.I.P. QuantumX, you will never be forgotten.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 03:39 AM   #4414
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If we stopped subsidizing the roads and let the markets decide, I bet a lot of people would choose to not pay the high tolls that would ensue and decide to take the train and let someone else do the driving for them.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 08:29 AM   #4415
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I don't know if he is trolling or he is some clown who was brainwashed by conservative propaganda. Even one of the mods or admins got pissed at him for the stupid stuff he is saying.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 08:44 AM   #4416
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
Read the u.s. constitution period and let the free market decide, get the government out of the way, i'm tired of big government, especially from the left and the RINO's.
Just for the heck of it, I went and actually re-read the Constitution. I found nothing that remotely suggested that "the government should keep its hands out of its citizen's purses".

This is what I found:

Quote:
Originally Posted by US Constitution; Section 8, Article I.
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.
So, the government has every right to collect taxes and to provide for general welfare.

The Constitution also legitimizes the government's right to use taxpayer money to construct and operate "post offices and post roads", which can be roughly translated in modern terms to include public communication services and transportation infrastructure, as a "post-road" is a term for "large transportation artery" in 18th century terms.

Therefore, under these circumstances, HSR is technically and fully validated by the US Constitution. I also went and looked at the Amendments too, and also found nothing that suggested that the government should GTFO.

(The closest I found were Amendments 3 and 4, which forbids the government from forcibly housing soldiers in private homes, and from unwarranted search and seizure), but neither of these really apply specifically to HSR, does it?

All in all, the Constitution (including all its amendments) seem poised to support construction of new public infrastructure with taxpayer dollars. I have yet to see evidence to the contrary.


The ball, my friend, is in your court.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 03:03 PM   #4417
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
Because the federal reserve really controls everything, it controls the borrowing and spending, making money out of nothing.
What FR have to do with the fact, that 100 years back in time you can just drill land and get oil flowing out under its own pressure, and 50 years from now it was possible to drill on shallow offshore or somewhere in Alaska, which was definitely more expensive than classic drills, but now we even don't have that, nowadays most of new oil comes either from some kind of oil sand (which need to be heavily heated before separating into usable fuel, and thst's not free) or shale (which also require a fare number of expensive operations, chemicals, machinery), or arctic, deep offshore, or some combination of above?

You are caught in a very common misconception - that money moves the world, that money rules the world...
But money is just illusion - the real things that rules and moves the world are physical phenomena: energy and materials, and all those things that can be produced from two abovementioned.
Through money is a powerful illusion, that can be used by a skilful magician to redistribute real things in more efficient way (or just for magican profit), but there must be real things somewhere in first place.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 06:57 PM   #4418
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...You guys, DON'T feed the troll, particularly when the troll really and truly believes what he's saying.

This thread has been derailed enough (excuse the pun).
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Old November 28th, 2013, 08:26 PM   #4419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XAN_ View Post
What FR have to do with the fact, that 100 years back in time you can just drill land and get oil flowing out under its own pressure, and 50 years from now it was possible to drill on shallow offshore or somewhere in Alaska, which was definitely more expensive than classic drills, but now we even don't have that, nowadays most of new oil comes either from some kind of oil sand (which need to be heavily heated before separating into usable fuel, and thst's not free) or shale (which also require a fare number of expensive operations, chemicals, machinery), or arctic, deep offshore, or some combination of above?

You are caught in a very common misconception - that money moves the world, that money rules the world...
But money is just illusion - the real things that rules and moves the world are physical phenomena: energy and materials, and all those things that can be produced from two abovementioned.
Through money is a powerful illusion, that can be used by a skilful magician to redistribute real things in more efficient way (or just for magican profit), but there must be real things somewhere in first place.

Your wrong, we have more oil here, that's because our congress have blocked production of oil and gas here in the united states.
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Left/Right it doesn't matter anymore, you still get bigger government, no matter who's in power.

Democrips and rebloodlicans aka democrats and republicans, two wings of the same bird of prey

thankfully i'm a libertarian constitutionalist.

#standwithrand

R.I.P. QuantumX, you will never be forgotten.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #4420
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Originally Posted by skyscraperhighrise View Post
Your wrong, we have more oil here, that's because our congress have blocked production of oil and gas here in the united states.
Yes you have, but what is the physical cost of production?
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